New to LS - Many Questions

Aaron S

Active Member
I have a demo unit that I'm trying out and have many misc. questions that an experienced user should be able to answer easily so I'll just post them all at once instead of many topics:

1. What is the best way to inverse between two points? Say I just want to know the bearing & distance between point #100 and #105.

2. I am constantly getting an interference warning on my unit. It doesn't matter if I'm in the parking lot, or a mile into the forest away from all electricity. Is there anything specific that causes this? I goes away sometimes even if I don't move it - in other words, it comes and goes seemingly at random.

3. When staking out a point/line, can I switch the display deltas to north/east, rather than left/right/ahead/back?

4. Can I use DPOS when running the rover off of RTN, or do I need to be connected to my own local base?

5. The wireless hotspot I use (Verizon) has a SIM card in it - can I swap this into one of the SIM card slots on the LS for RTN corrections?

6. Is there a feature in COGO to proportion a point on a line? It would be nice to punch in the original GLO chainage and have it compute the corners along a line.

7. Is there a need for any kind of office software (similar to Trimble Business Center) that I can use to visually QC/QA my points, or do the internally generated reports serve that purpose?

8. How is it possible for this unit to perform as well as a Trimble R10, yet cost half as much - especially when you figure in the cost of the controller. I am loving this unit would love to buy it instead of an R10, but I keep asking myself "what's the catch?"

Many questions - thanks for your time.
 

Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings
5PLS
1. What is the best way to inverse between two points? Say I just want to know the bearing & distance between point #100 and #105.
From the Home screen, press COGO, Basic, Inverse. There are two white boxes at the top of the screen. A quick press of the box brings up a menu for selecting the point from the map or from the list. A long press of the white box (press it and hold it) brings up a keyboard that allows you to type in the point name (such as 100). On the Inverse screen there is also a small checkbox button. If you press this, you can select both points at the same time from the list. There is also a button with two curved arrows. This switches the first point and the second. Look carefully at the direction and distance labels. You can change them by pressing them. For instance, you can look at the B, Grid (grid bearing) or the B, Geo (geographic bearing). For distance you can switch from D, Grid (grid distance) to D, Ground (ground distance) to Slant (3D mark to mark distance). The same is true for heights as well.

2. I am constantly getting an interference warning on my unit. It doesn't matter if I'm in the parking lot, or a mile into the forest away from all electricity. Is there anything specific that causes this? I goes away sometimes even if I don't move it - in other words, it comes and goes seemingly at random.
The interference warning isn't always just electrical interference. This warning will appear when the signal strength of the satellites (called Signal to Noise Ratio) is poor. This could be from being under a roof or under tree canopy. It takes a few minutes for the receiver to clear the warning if you leave your vehicle and step out into the open.

3. When staking out a point/line, can I switch the display deltas to north/east, rather than left/right/ahead/back?
Yes, press and hold any of the white boxes that line the sides of the map and you can change the behavior of the button from a menu of options.

4. Can I use DPOS when running the rover off of RTN, or do I need to be connected to my own local base?
No. Currently you cannot use DPOS with an RTN and must have a Javad GNSS base station.

5. The wireless hotspot I use (Verizon) has a SIM card in it - can I swap this into one of the SIM card slots on the LS for RTN corrections?
No. Currently the SIM card slots are GSM (ie AT&T) while Verizon is CDMA. You will also need to have your SIM card slot activated on the Triumph-LS (if it is not already).

6. Is there a feature in COGO to proportion a point on a line? It would be nice to punch in the original GLO chainage and have it compute the corners along a line.
I don't believe this feature exists currently.

7. Is there a need for any kind of office software (similar to Trimble Business Center) that I can use to visually QC/QA my points, or do the internally generated reports serve that purpose?
Javad has several utility programs available for free, but the LS is designed to provide everything from the box. The report data along with the screen captures provides an unprecedented amount of detail for an RTK system. If you ever do decide to get your own base to incorporate DPOS, you will find that post processing is all handled by the LS and Javad's server (no need for extra software) and allows you to compare RTK and Post Processed vectors extremely efficiently.

8. How is it possible for this unit to perform as well as a Trimble R10, yet cost half as much - especially when you figure in the cost of the controller. I am loving this unit would love to buy it instead of an R10, but I keep asking myself "what's the catch?"
You would need to ask Trimble why they sell their systems at such high costs. It's interesting to me that they sell the boards to Chinese manufacturers who can then sell systems with Trimble components at a fraction of the cost of an R10 or even an R8. I can say that Trimble's pricing is not something we really consider. Having known Javad for a few years now, he's obviously interested in being profitable, but his main motivation is to get a superior device into the hands of as many surveyors as possible.

Be sure to check out the videos I've made that are accessible at: http://javad.com/jgnss/support/video.html
 

Sean Joyce

Well-Known Member
"but I keep asking myself "what's the catch?"

Hello Aaron, I was one of the original Trial members and have had my system since 2014.
Before that, since 1990 I typically rented GPS equipment as I needed it. I used most of the major GPS equipment over the years.
Without getting into too much detail (there are many testimonials about Javad equipment and the experiences users have with it on this forum),
I can safely and emphatically say there is no "catch" with Javad equipment or the organization.
I have been able to completely change the way I survey and do a better quality job in MUCH less time using the Javad L.S..
The equipment, software, and support is the best I have ever experienced from ANY company, (not just surveying equipment) that I have ever dealt with for anything.
After you get more familiar with the equipment you will be VERY happy you made the decision to acquire it.
 

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
Many users set one of the user configurable U1, or U2 etc to "INVERSE" I have U4 set to inverse.
To do this, hit the LARGE setup button, to the right of the big COGO button.
Then, hit the Assign U1-U4
Then, hit the U button you wish to assign. (U4 for me)
Then, COGO, (bottom middle)
Then, CoGo BASIC, (top middle)
then, CoGo Inverse, (top middle)
There, now you can inverse, just by hitting U4.
You will have to do this for EACH action profile. This seems cumbersome... but it allows versatility.
And,
Shawn, I still want MID point. :) (People who work in the PLSS have a few things they need. Such as prorate, (Item 6 above)

Aaron, the biggest difference I can find, between the JAVAD, and the "rest of them", is that the Javad is pushing 864 horsepower. And, the rest are still down in the 4-500 Hp.
Also, this Javad product is still in development... it gets better about every 6 wks.
I hope I have helped. (My product endorsements are unsolicited)

Nate
 

Aaron S

Active Member
Thanks everyone for the replies. I don't know how I missed the big "inverse" button on the cogo menu. I admit this thing has a bit of a steep learning curve for someone who's only used Trimble for the past 15 years, but the more I use this, the easier it gets. I'm a big fan of Shawn's YouTube videos also, they help a lot. It's also interesting that the long press of a button unlocks a lot of hidden functions.

The only thing I'm struggling with in general is how to tell if the points it stores are good quality. I know there's several indicators of point quality as you do a long boundary shot, but I'm used to the Trimble where they show you at the bottom 0.03 H / 0.07 V all the time. I'll have to spend some more time to get a feel for what the numbers are saying. I'm pretty sure this unit won't store a position that's a float or autonomous solution without me forcing it though.

Thanks again everyone - I feel like I'm talking to celebrities with some of you guys from the other message board!
 

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
Accuracy.... Look at the SIZE of the square, on the collect screen. On left, is horiz. On right is Vertical.
Now, details.
The LS has a little radio noise IN it. So, it generates a bit of scatter, up to and around 0.04'. however, since this scatter is NON directional, it averages out in about 45". So, in a field, with 100% sky, and a horizontal scatter of 0.045' is fine... it has enough data to average out.
As you go into the woods, you will see the horiz and vert scatter getting larger. Essentially, this MEANS more time on point, to average out this scatter.
IF I am on a point in the woods, and it gives me a Horiz scatter of 0.23', and a Vert Scatter of 0.55', then I also LOOK at this scatter. Is it a well rounded group? If so, then it is a better shot. IF it is a single cluster, but has 3 outliers, it's probably within the cluster. If it has a mini cluster, but a long line across the screen.... well it may well be within 0.23'. It needs enough time on point, to stop walking in any given direction, and come back, and generate a single large cluster.
IF I shoot one, with 180", and it yields a horiz of 0.23', and a vert of 0.55', and BOTH of those are lines, with no real clustering, almost always that NEEDS another observation. Do it several times. Sometimes the String across the screen, is ok, but if the LS is not confident, it has ways to tell you to double check.
OFTEN the ones like this, that yield a string will average out (Using the average cluster) and the worst outlier will be that one with a string.
Maybe later I can post a few pics, outlining what I am saying.
Or somebody else can...
I will say, that this ability to QC, in the woods, is FINE FINE FINE

N
 

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
There is a Stakes Cogo Option that will proportion the line for you. Enter the two end points and tell it how many internal points to add. It proportions them in for you. If you want the mid point then just put 1. If you want quarter corners enter 3 and it will calculate the quarters and mid.
I did not know this. AWESOME!
 

John Evers

Well-Known Member
5PLS
Aaron,

Yes there is a lot to learn. The capture of the screen shot taken during a measurement reveals much more than any QC/QA values. In my opinion, one of the best things about the LS is the "What To Record" feature. As Shawn mentioned above, the shape of the scatter plot tells quite a bit.

When I export my work to the PC, I always include a pdf file. For control points, I have my What To Record set to include Screen Shots "A1+A2". This means you will have a screen shot at the moment your desired number of fixes is achieved, and at the end of the shot. For simple topo shots, I do not save screen shots, but the standard information in the pdf report

Now the best part of a Javad LS...is a button on the Home Screen. Press Support, then Live Support. You will get a list of some very useful phone numbers. Give any of us a call.
 

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
Matt, I tried a earlier version... Something was not quite right, and I dismissed it. Never went back.
I just ran through it. It will do. Until I DO it, well, it does not stick.
N
 

Aaron S

Active Member
I've been given a Triumph 1M (base) as part of my demo package, but the internal radio and stick antenna (the one that's like a little extension rod) simply don't have the range I need. I have been doing RTK off my Trimble R8 base using the LS rover and a 35 watt HPB450 radio. Would it be possible to use that external radio to broadcast the 1M base? I see that the connecting cable would physically plug in to the 1M, but I don't dare plug it in without the know-how.

If not, what's the Javad equivalent 35 watt radio I would need? Also, I'm looking at the Triumph 2 as the base receiver, since the 1M might be a budget-buster (federal agency, strict budget), so if someone could explain the difference using a Triumph 2 vs a 1M as a base, that would be great.

Thanks again...
 

John Evers

Well-Known Member
5PLS
Aaron,

Let me know where your work areas are.

I use the Triumph 2 as my base, and I love it. I have the 1 watt uhf radio, with built in battery and Bluetooth, and it is an external device to the T2.

I would likely desire the 35 watt radio from Javad, but the areas which I work all have cell coverage, and the Triumph 2 is rather simple to set up as a server on the internet. Because the T2 can connect to WiFi, the only additional hardware needed is a Jetpack hotspot with a static ip address. I recommend Verizon.

If you do this you will never worry about how far from your base you are. 6 miles is the "technical" range limitation to RTK, but I have no problems at 10 miles with open sky. You will also never have any of the urban area radio issues, or terrain limitations. I therefore use my UHF radio simply as a fill in, in the very rare occasions I have no cell service.

There is also the option to configure the Javad radio modems as repeaters.
 

Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings
5PLS
Triumph-2 is a great receiver. Very small, but no internal radio. You have to have the external radio with it. The Triumph-1M has an internal radio. You can use a Javad external radio as well. In both cases, the connection between the base and the radio is via Bluetooth (no cable between them). Soon, the firmware will allow for the Triumph-1M to broadcast to a Javad radio that acts as a repeater. This will get you the very best range because the repeater can be anywhere as long as it has a signal from the base. It then rebroadcasts the signal. This would be very good for hilly terrain as the repeater could be set up on top of the hill while the Triumph-1M can be setup in the valley below.

The Triumph-1M is able to track Galileo. The Triumph-2 may be able to track a portion of Galileo but will not be able to track all of the signals from Galileo. Currently the Triumph-LS does not use Galileo in the RTK solution so it is not a loss (at the moment). At some point, the Triumph-LS engines will be updated to include Galileo in the RTK solution but Triumph-2 users will not be able to experience the full benefits of this change.

The radio you would be interested in is the HPT-435BT. It's a 35 watt modem with Bluetooth.
 

Aaron S

Active Member
Just to clarify, I work in northern Minnesota, almost exclusively in the forests under varying canopy. The cell coverage is extremely unstable, so I often set up a base to keep the baselines short and the signal reliable.

It sounds like the Triumph-1M is a better base receiver compared to the T2 (but maybe not worth the extra cost to me), but it also sounds like I could get by with a T2 and external radio to accomplish the same stuff I do with my current Trimble base - again, budget limitations or else I would just stick with the Triumph-1M. In other words, the Triumph-1M sounds like overkill for what I need it to do.
 

Aaron S

Active Member
I should also mention that my typical equipment setup (when using all Trimble) is to set a base up, use the base receiver as a rover to shoot the point its sitting on using VRS/RTN, and then startup the base on that known coordinate, and then RTK off that base point with my other receiver.
 

Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings
5PLS
Just to clarify, I work in northern Minnesota, almost exclusively in the forests under varying canopy. The cell coverage is extremely unstable, so I often set up a base to keep the baselines short and the signal reliable.

It sounds like the Triumph-1M is a better base receiver compared to the T2 (but maybe not worth the extra cost to me), but it also sounds like I could get by with a T2 and external radio to accomplish the same stuff I do with my current Trimble base - again, budget limitations or else I would just stick with the Triumph-1M. In other words, the Triumph-1M sounds like overkill for what I need it to do.

Could be. We don't try to push customers in any particular direction. We just tell you what each will do and let you decide. For some users the Triumph-1M makes a lot of sense, to others the cost savings of the Triumph-2 makes sense.
 

Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings
5PLS
I should also mention that my typical equipment setup (when using all Trimble) is to set a base up, use the base receiver as a rover to shoot the point its sitting on using VRS/RTN, and then startup the base on that known coordinate, and then RTK off that base point with my other receiver.

It is possible to do this with the Triumph-LS and Triumph-2. Set up the base, make the Triumph-2 an external receiver on the Triumph-LS. Use your RTN profile to set the Triumph-LS to RTN corrections and collect the point. Then switch to UHF profile and turn off external receiver. Proceed with base rover setup.

Or you could put the LS on the base point with the RTN profile active, collect the point using RTN corrections, then set the base up on the point and start base rover.
 

Matthew D. Sibole

Well-Known Member
5PLS
There are a few customers in your part of the world. The Michigan DNR in the UP are using 1M's and LS's. I know a few others in northeastern MN that are using T2's and LS's.

In extremely heavy tree canopy your radio range will be limited even with a 35 watt. In flat ground in the UP we were only able to get just over a mile. The canopy is just too dense to get the range that most flat landers get.

The key to getting the furthest you can is getting height on your uhf radio antenna. I put my antenna on a round 15' tall level rod set in the center of a cheap aluminum tripod.
 
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