Compare Trimble R-10 to Javad LS

[Nate The Surveyor]

There is a tbread, over at rplstoday.com, with several of us going to a State Park, to review and compare these 2 systems.
Here's the link:

https://rplstoday.com/community/threads/whod-like-to-go-compare-a-r10-to-a-javad.332352/

Love to have you, if you want to come.
Nate

 

[Sean Joyce]

Go getem Nate

 

[Nate The Surveyor]

I find it fascinating, that some Trimble users, WANT us to do the test THEIR WAY.
1.) single antenna, signal splitter. (But the R10 has no port, for external antenna)
2.) Place antenna on a beam, where you can swap ends, and get them back to the same location. Look at this pic, and tell me how to use the spinner:

anyway, it's gonna be fun!

Nate

 

[Nistorescu Sorin]

To audit a GNSS receiver as an electronic device, we must understand that only experts could help.
No splitters, beams, or spinners in the woods (just my humble opinion);
https://www.spirent.com/Products/PT-TestBench

Also we must consider the GNSS receiver as part of a more extended system for geodesy. For example:
Triumph LS = receiver + DPOS service + RTK verification + continuous spectrum analyser; this kind of unique type of rover is for accuracy/precision, although probably more time consuming;

Trimble R10 = GNSS receiver + CenterPoint RTX (GNSS corrections via satellite/internet) + rover/total station integrated surveying; a precise instrument with more freedom when missing cellular data;

 

[Darren Clemons]

I find it fascinating, that some Trimble users, WANT us to do the test THEIR WAY.
1.) single antenna, signal splitter. (But the R10 has no port, for external antenna)
2.) Place antenna on a beam, where you can swap ends, and get them back to the same location. Look at this pic, and tell me how to use the spinner:View attachment 6915
anyway, it's gonna be fun!

Nate

Of course they want to do it THEIR way Nate......there's no one else out there that CAN do it the Javad way......

 

[Shawn Billings]

I still read from users of other systems that there are still many places rtk won't go. This is true, of course. But this is repeated so often I have to wonder if their systems are so limited in capability that they don't have the ability to work in the places we can with the LS.

Working with the LS, my first thoughts are not how limited RTK is but about just how much I can do with RTK now.

Of course, we don't sell optical equipment so we don't make any extra money convincing you that you need RTK and a robotic system. It may be true that you do, or perhaps you don't. If RTK can be expanded to meet most of your needs then maybe you can work with a much less expensive optical instrument.

 

[Darren Clemons]

I still read from users of other systems that there are still many places rtk won't go. This is true, of course. But this is repeated so often I have to wonder if their systems are so limited in capability that they don't have the ability to work in the places we can with the LS.

Working with the LS, my first thoughts are not how limited RTK is but about just how much I can do with RTK now.

Of course, we don't sell optical equipment so we don't make any extra money convincing you that you need RTK and a robotic system. It may be true that you do, or perhaps you don't. If RTK can be expanded to meet most of your needs then maybe you can work with a much less expensive optical instrument.

Shawn,
It’s certainly true that “other” brands won’t go anywhere near where we can go with the LS.

However, that being said, I still believe that - at least in my area - that most surveyors simply do not, and will not, EVER trust RTK.

There was a line in the Batman Begins movie where Marconi said “we always fear what we don’t understand”. A lot of guys simply will never switch no matter how great the equipment becomes.

And....that’s all the better for us who embrace and thrive on using and learning new technology.

 

[Shawn Billings]

And....that’s all the better for us who embrace and thrive on using and learning new technology.

I agree. The young guys coming up without the inhibitions to RTK will have a lot of opportunity before them. (I'm still amazed at what I can do solo and all that this means for my earning potential and quality of life.) That's provided that these same young guys coming up have the good judgement to always use their equipment with a reasonable measure of distrust, at least enough to check and verify the results.

 

[Darren Clemons]

I agree. The young guys coming up without the inhibitions to RTK will have a lot of opportunity before them. (I'm still amazed at what I can do solo and all that this means for my earning potential and quality of life.) That's provided that these same young guys coming up have the good judgement to always use their equipment with a reasonable measure of distrust, at least enough to check and verify the results.

Exactly. I certainly didn’t intend to mean “trust” RTK without understanding the process which goes into a good trustworthy result. I have known some gps users in the past who did and the results are not pretty. Have any of you ever heard the “well the GPS said it was good” line???

That is what sets the LS so far apart, in my opinion, is the amount of verifying and validation that goes into the final RTK (or PPK) result. There is simply not a chance you will walk away from a point now without literally 100% certainty in its results - if you use/take/check all the necessary parameters.

 

[Shawn Billings]

It wasn't directed at you by any means, Darren. Just the general caveat that always seems to have to go along with discussions about RTK in the woods. I do believe that the upcoming generation of surveyors will find lots of ways to improve profits over the current one because they don't have that fear instilled in them or the resistance to change. Hopefully they will have respect for the potential errors due to shortcuts.

 

[Nistorescu Sorin]

A person (so dedicated to geodesy) that have a "spinner", must also have a LS as reference receiver, because of many inside features that are common with TRE-3 OEM board.

 

[jtstrickland]

Is this a for sure thing? What date(s) and time?
I am going to try to come.
TIA, Terry

 

[John Evers]

It is a sure thing...weather looks good.

 

[Shawn Billings]

I'm planning to be there this Friday.

 

[John Evers]

Shawn,
I am going to head out on Thursday, for an early Friday arrival.

I want to get at least a three sided closed traverse ran for a few of the points we will collect. The only reason to do this is to deny the gavin types an opportunity for criticism of methodology.

The optical instrument that I own is a 5603, which is a "face one" only instrument. I can turn sets, but there is not a valid benefit from doing so because of the way the instrument operates. I am also lacking a second prism due to a thief, which makes classic traversing not so efficient.

In other words, do you have a total station you could bring, as opposed to my clunky robot? I could have line cleared, and points set prior to your arrival.

 

[Shawn Billings]

Shawn,
I am going to head out on Thursday, for an early Friday arrival.

I want to get at least a three sided closed traverse ran for a few of the points we will collect. The only reason to do this is to deny the gavin types an opportunity for criticism of methodology.

The optical instrument that I own is a 5603, which is a "face one" only instrument. I can turn sets, but there is not a valid benefit from doing so because of the way the instrument operates. I am also lacking a second prism due to a thief, which makes classic traversing not so efficient.

In other words, do you have a total station you could bring, as opposed to my clunky robot? I could have line cleared, and points set prior to your arrival.

Yes, I'll bring my instrument. I agree we need to do this. Might be good to have two separate instruments, poles, prisms, to run through the traverse if we have that available. So if anyone wants to bring their instrument and poles (and they feel confident that their equipment is in good adjustment) I would encourage them to bring it. I'm thinking it may be good to have 10 points for the rovers plus two base station setups in the open. We don't need to traverse through all 12 points, but it would be good to be able to see each of the 12 from at least 2 different places to create a network with some redundancy. I'll bring my laptop with SurvNET least squares and we can adjust the traverse while we're there. If we can create the control on Friday, then we can test on Saturday. Would that work?

I would think that some of the 10 can be in the open, but I doubt that anyone is really interested in testing in the open as I doubt there is much performance difference there.

 

[John Evers]

I am in 100% agreement that we need to run control on Friday.

I was thinking that if we have a traverse point, surrounded by 6 sideshots in a general cluster, we could stand as a group at each station, cycling through the points a few times on each pass through. This would keep us all together.

 

[John Evers]

Do you have a T1M to bring? The addition of L5 might be nice.

 

[Shawn Billings]

Yes. I'll be bringing a Triumph-1M.

 

[Adam]

That's going to be awesome guys! Have fun and take pics.