Galileo Satellites

Aaron S

Aaron S

Active Member
I just got this email message from the Minnesota CORS network:

Galileo Upgrade
We will be performing software upgrades beginning at 11:00am on January 3rd, 2018 and ending in the evening on the 3rd. The network will be unavailable during this timeframe. Once the upgrade is complete a notice will be sent out to all users. This upgrade will allow us to install options to utilize the European Galileo satellite system. More information to follow.
​
I understand in the most basic terms that this means more SV's in the air, which the LS can see, but what will I expect to see in terms of performance for the LS?
 
Matt Johnson

Matt Johnson

Well-Known Member
5PLS
This really isn't a limitation of J-Field but rather the GNSS firmware. Once the GNSS firmware is able to utilize Galileo satellites in the RTK engines, J-Field will be able to provide solutions utilizing Galileo. The RTK team is currently working on implementing RTK positioning using all GNSS systems.
 
Nistorescu Sorin

Nistorescu Sorin

Active Member
Although we are still waiting the GNSS firmware which will be able to utilize Galileo satellites in the RTK engines, I can see for the moment how LS can differentiate the quality of the Galileo signals (just watch the RMS value in a standalone positioning with 5-6 Galileo sats only) from those received from GPS or GLONASS constellations:

6 Galileo
Galileo RMS.png


9 GPS
GPS RMS.png


6 GLONASS
Glonass RMS.png


Many improvements will be seen not only related to signals, orbits and multipath characteristics, but also about the number of signals. So, in 2018 Galileo will offer at least 20 satellites, each of them with four broadcasted open-frequency: (E1, E5a, E5b, AltBOC).

We can use a dual frequency service based on E1 and E5a (for best ionospheric error cancellation), or triple frequency services unaffected by line biases (see "GPS line bias L1 L2 L5" attached) using all the signals together (E1, E5a and E5b) for PPP applications.

Hope that Galileo and Javad receivers will guide us toward a "L1-E1/L5-E5" approach in the near future, but the cruel truth is that someone has different kind of toys for positioning-navigation-and-timing..

https://www.darpa.mil/program/micro-technology-for-positioning-navigation-and-timing
https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2014-07-24
 

Attachments

  • GPS line bias L1 L2 L5.pdf
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toivo1037

toivo1037

Active Member
Matt Johnson said:
This really isn't a limitation of J-Field but rather the GNSS firmware. Once the GNSS firmware is able to utilize Galileo satellites in the RTK engines, J-Field will be able to provide solutions utilizing Galileo. The RTK team is currently working on implementing RTK positioning using all GNSS systems.
Click to expand...

Is this just the LS? I was under the impression that the T1M is already using Galileo.
 
Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings
5PLS
We can't say specifically, but we are looking at a few months. It is a top priority of the RTK development team.

I can only speculate as to the potential improvement to performance, but given the stronger signals from Galileo and the addition of another frequency and the increased number of satellites coming from different locations, I think the change will be dramatic in canopy. I don't believe there will be a substantial difference in performance in the open, nor do I think there will be a substantial difference in precision in the open. In canopy, precision could really be helped with the improved PDOP that more satellites will bring.

The Triumph-2 as a base provides fantastic corrections as a base receiver, and I tell all prospective customers this. However, when the Galileo is supported in our RTK engines, I suspect the performance improvement will be dramatic, so I urge prospective customers to consider the Triumph-1M, as it has the ability to track the E1 and E5 from Galileo. The Triumph-2 cannot. The Triumph-LS tracks Galileo at no additional cost. There is an upgrade cost for the Triumph-1M to track Galileo though. So for those prospective buyers looking to purchase the Triumph-1M, I encourage them to buy the basic configuration and purchase the upgrade to track Galileo later, unless they want to go ahead and purchase it now for financing purposes. The current upgrade to Galileo for the Triumph-1M is $2000.
 
Clay Davidson

Clay Davidson

Active Member
I bought the Triumph 1M and a LS for that very reason and have been anxious about Galileo since I first heard about it years ago. It seems now that all the pieces might be fallen together....finally.
 
Darren Clemons

Darren Clemons

Well-Known Member
Shawn Billings said:
We can't say specifically, but we are looking at a few months. It is a top priority of the RTK development team.

I can only speculate as to the potential improvement to performance, but given the stronger signals from Galileo and the addition of another frequency and the increased number of satellites coming from different locations, I think the change will be dramatic in canopy. I don't believe there will be a substantial difference in performance in the open, nor do I think there will be a substantial difference in precision in the open. In canopy, precision could really be helped with the improved PDOP that more satellites will bring.

The Triumph-2 as a base provides fantastic corrections as a base receiver, and I tell all prospective customers this. However, when the Galileo is supported in our RTK engines, I suspect the performance improvement will be dramatic, so I urge prospective customers to consider the Triumph-1M, as it has the ability to track the E1 and E5 from Galileo. The Triumph-2 cannot. The Triumph-LS tracks Galileo at no additional cost. There is an upgrade cost for the Triumph-1M to track Galileo though. So for those prospective buyers looking to purchase the Triumph-1M, I encourage them to buy the basic configuration and purchase the upgrade to track Galileo later, unless they want to go ahead and purchase it now for financing purposes. The current upgrade to Galileo for the Triumph-1M is $2000.
Click to expand...
That is great news! Thanks for posting Shawn.
We also bought the 1m anticipating this...sounds like we’re very close.
If Galileo provides a dramatic increase in canopy to what the LS already provides....wow. Canopy will basically be LIKE being in the open ;)
If this AND Linux both get fully implemented and going, this should be a very exciting year for us Javad users!!
 
D

David Staveley

New Member
If you are using an LS as an RTK net rover, and the corrections you are given don't include Galileo, does that mean the extra satellites would have no effect on your position?
 
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Duane Frymire

Active Member
I really like the size/portability of the T2. Does the size make it impossible to include L5 and Gallileo? Could the size be expanded slightly to allow the capability? Typically, where I need the advantages the most is also where I need the portability the most.
 
Nate The Surveyor

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
Duane,
If you get a T-1M, it HAS a built in 1 watt radio.
So, for alot of our work, (After moving to the T-1M) we will only have ONE thing to set up... the BASE T-1M. Now, IF we need range, we set another radio (35 watt is my choice) as a repeater. NOW we have more range, and versatility.
Much of our work will not need more than 1 watt. especially for corner setting.
N
 
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Duane Frymire

Active Member
Nate, I agree the T-1M is awesome. Especially up here where a repeater will do more than more power (line of sight issues). But I also use the T2 solo in far backcountry. I'm going to purchase a T-1M probably this year. But I would also pay for an upgrade to the T2 if it were available. Maybe others would not and it's a business decision rather than technical, just wondering. I'm a bit skeptical that noticeable improvement will be seen over the T2 in more southern latitudes such as yours. I mean, I've seen the tests from you guys; is it possible the newer signals can virtually eliminate canopy affect? Seems you're almost there already with the T2/LS combo. Could be wrong, waiting anxiously for some tests of that in a few months. Up here performance drops off for a few hours during the middle of the day, and I'm thinking the more northern Galileo satellites might fill in during that time. I'll definitely test it up here once it's available.
 
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Duane Frymire

Active Member
Nate The Surveyor said:
Duane, tell us what equipment you have.
Click to expand...
I have the best: JAVAD

But yeah, I'm trying to figure out the future. Not easy, but we're looking at still the glonass/gps being the most important part. Javad has this down. L1C/E1 (MBOC) coming on line. There's supposed to be some interoperability coming with this. At any rate, I'm just looking for information in order to help others make the right choice for their situation. By 2025 or so the codeless or semi-codeless will not necessarily work (end of promised support from the U.S. government).
 
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Nate The Surveyor

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
Well, Duane, here are my thoughts.
A LOCAL BASE, (regardless of if it's cors base, or your own local one) is always best.
If you take a t2 into the back woods, and set it up, with a post process static observation, off of cors sites, which are 20 miles away, and 40 miles away, you will get results. (especially in woods)
But
You will GENERALLY get better results, from your own local private base, set in the clear, and processed off of DPOS, and carry an LS into the backwoods.
Both work.
But, stick to shorter base lines. It's just going to yield the best data.
And, when Galileo comes on...
Surveyors win.
Plan for the T-1m.
N
 
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