New Triumph LS Plus & Triumph 3 Base Major Fixing Problems

aaronf187

New Member
Guys, let me start by saying we have used the LS and Triumph 2 base for a couple of years, and have generally had fine results. In Heavy canopy we can usually get the shot we need, Mind you, it takes some time. We upgraded to the latest and greatest LS Plus and T3 Base with a 35 Watt Radio in hopes of knocking our field work in half or less by being able to see so many more satellites. IT TAKES LONGER THAN OUR CHEAP SETUP. We must have settings wrong in here, I've had Chris give it a look over a couple of times and we should be good to go. We specifically use Boundary Mode and often work in canopy. If it will get a shot, it is no faster than our older LS / T2 setup. It doesn't make sense to me how the Rover can see nearly 30 satellites and not get a good fix. So far we are super unhappy with this investment and are contemplating returning it. Also, we ordered RTPK to come with the LS Plus and so far I cannot find this anywhere on our unit. Any tips would be appreciated!

Should we use Precise Topo with a combination of RTPK for this type of boundary work? I'm at a loss, I expected so much more out of this unit and even in the edge of the woods its just garbage.
 

Matthew D. Sibole

Well-Known Member
5PLS
The LS+ is for sure a different animal. There are different ways to verify that the shot is good than the old way of thinking (waiting on repeated epochs over a specific time period). You should call one of the support members to help you get some settings right and get a feel for how to verify data with the new setup.
 

Darren Clemons

Well-Known Member
First of all, the combo of the LS-Plus and the T3 are brand new. They're both dealing with hardware and firmware that has literally just rolled off the shelf. If there's one thing I've learned in over 6 years of using Javad equipment, it is that it "takes a little time" to get everything set correctly and working properly.

Matthew is 100% correct in that the LS-Plus is, without a doubt, a "different animal". If you take/copy an old "boundary" profile you were using in the standard LS and try it with the Plus unit, you very well may experience what you're describing. The absolute main setting that MUST be changed is the minimum number of engines has to be set at 1. The unit flat out just does not work the same as it did - it works tremendously BETTER! We have, as a fact, shortened our occupying time on ALL points in medium and heavy coverage by at least 50%.

That is not to imply that all of those points make it through "all three phases", because they very rarely do. We get tremendously better, faster redundancy by using a combination of RTK and RTPK. The most extreme of the extreme spots are usually verified by ending up with at least 2 or 3 matching 5 minute+- RTPK solutions (as opposed to previously storing 3 or 4 fifteen minute session and then hoping two match back at the office). The "medium" canopy shots are usually an RTK solution of somewhere around 150-250 seconds, then duplicated and verified by a matching RTPK (which eliminates the need for a 2nd shot as we previously did).

I cannot speak for any performance from the T3 base as I do not have one. I have T1M bases on all 3 of my units, but as far as the LS-Plus being "just garbage", that is simply untrue. You just very likely have anywhere from one to several settings that are incorrect and need adjusting. Take Matthew's and Shawn's advice and call one of them and let them help you get things "smoothed out". There's no way you won't be impressed when you see what this unit will really do!
 

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
There are several ways to be sure a particular coord is correct.
In the Topcon days, it was simply multiple fixed shots, over a period of time. This was best done, by shooting all the open points once, and all the challenging ones 2-5 times, at different times of the day.
Then came the LS / T2 combo, which solved the issue into: multiple fixes, over a time frame of 180 seconds. If it was a critical point, do this 3x, and average.
Then came the 4 constellation gear, (you have it, and I don't), which is like a 8 lane highway, in that it handles more traffic, over shorter time frame.
I still feel that that 180 second time may be important, but not in the same way as it used to be.
I said all that to say that when you got the 1st generation t2/LS combo, they had pretty well automated the boundary profile specifications, so that you just waited for the full verify music.
The specifications, and algorithms to achieve 100% confidence, with the T1m/T3, and upgraded LS are not fully resolved at this point. However, from what I read, we are achieving something in the 97% confidence, in 50% of the time. That little 3% is being solved and eleminated at this time via multiple observations.
These observations are strictly my own. And, could be wrong. I don't have a t3 yet.
The rules have changed. So your LS settings must change too.
I have a very busy world right now. My t3 LS will have to wait a while.
N
 

Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings
5PLS
With multi-constellation, I do not use the same approach to verification that I used with GPS+Glonass v6+ when working in canopy. We're still ironing out exactly what patterns point to success and then we'll be implementing changes to the software to capitalize on those patterns. But I can say this from some testing I've done:

Preliminary Verification Observation with Multi-Constellation
RTPK and RTK agreement
points to a good solution. I can't say this is 100.000% correct, but I'd put the odds at 1:10,000 or better that when RTPK and RTK agree that the solution might still be a failure. Ultimately, I anticipate that this will be incorporated in the action profile, but there will need to be some changes to the software to automate this. For now, I use a White Box button for Post-Processing which allows the user to start processing at any time during the RTK observation. The benefit is that you can be processing RTPK at the same time the RTK is still working out the solution. Once the RTPK solution is acquired, you can visually compare it to the RTK solution. If the RTK and RTPK solutions are in close agreement, the likelihood is that the fix is good, even if you only have a handful of RTK epochs.

Multiple RTPK solutions in agreement can also point to a good solution. First, let me clear up what this is NOT. This is not simply pressing the RTPK Start White Box button several times in an observation and getting the same answer. When the White Box is pressed, the processing starts at the beginning of the session and processes up to when the button was pressed. So each time processing is done with the White Box during the collection of a point, the processor is processing some of the same data. This may still be a good indicator of a fix, seeing that each time the White Box button is pressed it gives the same result, but what I'm actually recommending here is having independent RTPK points agree with each other. Eventually, I believe this will be automated in the software as well, but for now, you can collect an RTPK point (even if it doesn't agree with RTK), store the RTPK, then collect another RTPK point and compare. I have seen two back-to-back RTPK sessions agree that were incorrect. Both solutions were 60 seconds in length and the total for both was about 120 seconds. In the environment I was working, I should have allowed more time (more on that below). As a result, Alexey and I recommend acquiring three matching RTPK sessions which should point to a good solution. Of course once obtained the cluster average can be used to merge the results of the three points into one.

Multiple Engines Fixed can point to a good solution. I ran a test in a medium canopy environment a couple of weeks ago with my Triumph-LS Plus. The test was setup such that when two engines fixed a point was stored using a single epoch. The engines were then reset and collection automatically started again. I ran this test for about five hours. There were no bad points stored in this five hour test. The precision wasn't great (horizontally the worst point was 0.2' from the average of the 1400 points collected and vertically the worst was 0.3' from the average), but considering this was only one epoch in a bad environment, I would consider this a great success. More importantly it demonstrates that having two or more engines fixed simultaneously can indicate a good fix. With the Triumph-LS Plus, this seems to be even more reliable than in the standard Triumph-LS with 2-engine firmware, but the rule is useful in the 2-engine firmware also. It appears that while a bad 2-engine fix can occasionally occur with the standard Triumph-LS, this doesn't last very long, perhaps only a few seconds. Currently it is possible to setup the software to watch for two engine fixes by watching the consistency counter (which only increments when two or more engines are fixed). The count need not be very high, I have mine set to require a consistency of 1 (the lowest setting available). What it does not do at the moment is increment if 2 engines fix at different times during the same observation (Engine 1 fixes then later Engine 2 fixes). This may also prove a good fix and be easier to acquire than two simultaneous engines. It is very, very important that with this rule GPS+Glonass+Galileo+Beidou are being used in the engines. I believe the reason this works is that the two engines are using satellites from very different geometries. These different geometries will be affected by multi-path differently as the signals bounce through trees and off of buildings. It's as if you took the shot now and came back later to take the shot again under a different constellation except now you can shoot the point under a different constellation contemporaneously.

Summation at present, when collecting critical points under canopy using the standard Triumph-LS (2-engine firmware) or Triumph-LS Plus with multi-constellation signals, I'm looking for two of the above conditions to pass. Unfortunately, these conditions require more user involvement at present than the old Boundary profile for the standard Triumph-LS with GPS and Glonass only, but reliable results can be obtained much more quickly. Ultimately, I anticipate these approaches (or some more refined version of them) will be implemented in the software, but for now the user must invest himself a bit more than with the earlier versions. So I watch for a consistency greater than 0 and RTPK agreement mostly, or I shoot the point two or more times looking for agreement between RTPK results or between RTPK in one and RTK in another.

A note about RTPK observation times. RTPK observations with multi-constellation data should not exceed six minutes. Per @Alexey Razumovsky:
My RTPK recommendations with regard to environment: open - 5-30 s; low - 1min; medium - 3 min: high - 4 min; extreme - 6 min. No sense to stay more than 6 min.
So at six minutes, store whatever the processor gives and start again. In the example I give above regarding two bad RTPK results agreeing, I was in a medium environment with only 60 second observations. When I tested again with a minimum observation of 180 seconds, I had a much better success rate and no bad solutions that agreed with the next solution. In other words, at three minutes in the medium environment, two agreeable solutions were always correct. These observation times are NOT appropriate for GPS+Glonass data and times will need to increase significantly when the correction data does not include Galileo and Beidou (basically the same as DPOS processing).
 
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With multi-constellation, I do not use the same approach to verification that I used with GPS+Glonass v6+ when working in canopy. We're still ironing out exactly what patterns point to success and then we'll be implementing changes to the software to capitalize on those patterns. But I can say this from some testing I've done:

Preliminary Verification Observation with Multi-Constellation
RTPK and RTK agreement
points to a good solution. I can't say this is 100.000% correct, but I'd put the odds at 1:10,000 or better that when RTPK and RTK agree that the solution might still be a failure. Ultimately, I anticipate that this will be incorporated in the action profile, but there will need to be some changes to the software to automate this. For now, I use a White Box button for Post-Processing which allows the user to start processing at any time during the RTK observation. The benefit is that you can be processing RTPK at the same time the RTK is still working out the solution. Once the RTPK solution is acquired, you can visually compare it to the RTK solution. If the RTK and RTPK solutions are in close agreement, the likelihood is that the fix is good, even if you only have a handful of RTK epochs.

Multiple RTPK solutions in agreement can also point to a good solution. First, let me clear up what this is NOT. This is not simply pressing the RTPK Start White Box button several times in an observation and getting the same answer. When the White Box is pressed, the processing starts at the beginning of the session and processes up to when the button was pressed. So each time processing is done with the White Box during the collection of a point, the processor is processing some of the same data. This may still be a good indicator of a fix, seeing that each time the White Box button is pressed it gives the same result, but what I'm actually recommending here is having independent RTPK points agree with each other. Eventually, I believe this will be automated in the software as well, but for now, you can collect an RTPK point (even if it doesn't agree with RTK), store the RTPK, then collect another RTPK point and compare. I have seen two back-to-back RTPK sessions agree that were incorrect. Both solutions were 60 seconds in length and the total for both was about 120 seconds. In the environment I was working, I should have allowed more time (more on that below). As a result, Alexey and I recommend acquiring three matching RTPK sessions which should point to a good solution. Of course once obtained the cluster average can be used to merge the results of the three points into one.

Multiple Engines Fixed can point to a good solution. I ran a test in a medium canopy environment a couple of weeks ago with my Triumph-LS Plus. The test was setup such that when two engines fixed a point was stored using a single epoch. The engines were then reset and collection automatically started again. I ran this test for about five hours. There were no bad points stored in this five hour test. The precision wasn't great (horizontally the worst point was 0.2' from the average of the 1400 points collected and vertically the worst was 0.3' from the average), but considering this was only one epoch in a bad environment, I would consider this a great success. More importantly it demonstrates that having two or more engines fixed simultaneously can indicate a good fix. With the Triumph-LS Plus, this seems to be even more reliable than in the standard Triumph-LS with 2-engine firmware, but the rule is useful in the 2-engine firmware also. It appears that while a bad 2-engine fix can occasionally occur with the standard Triumph-LS, this doesn't last very long, perhaps only a few seconds. Currently it is possible to setup the software to watch for two engine fixes by watching the consistency counter (which only increments when two or more engines are fixed). The count need not be very high, I have mine set to require a consistency of 1 (the lowest setting available). What it does not do at the moment is increment if 2 engines fix at different times during the same observation (Engine 1 fixes then later Engine 2 fixes). This may also prove a good fix and be easier to acquire than two simultaneous engines. It is very, very important that with this rule GPS+Glonass+Galileo+Beidou are being used in the engines. I believe the reason this works is that the two engines are using satellites from very different geometries. These different geometries will be affected by multi-path differently as the signals bounce through trees and off of buildings. It's as if you took the shot now and came back later to take the shot again under a different constellation except now you can shoot the point under a different constellation contemporaneously.

Summation at present, when collecting critical points under canopy using the standard Triumph-LS (2-engine firmware) or Triumph-LS Plus with multi-constellation signals, I'm looking for two of the above conditions to pass. Unfortunately, these conditions require more user involvement at present than the old Boundary profile for the standard Triumph-LS with GPS and Glonass only, but reliable results can be obtained much more quickly. Ultimately, I anticipate these approaches (or some more refined version of them) will be implemented in the software, but for now the user must invest himself a bit more than with the earlier versions. So I watch for a consistency greater than 0 and RTPK agreement mostly, or I shoot the point two or more times looking for agreement between RTPK results or between RTPK in one and RTK in another.

A note about RTPK observation times. RTPK observations with multi-constellation data should not exceed six minutes. Per @Alexey Razumovsky:
My RTPK recommendations with regard to environment: open - 5-30 s; low - 1min; medium - 3 min: high - 4 min; extreme - 6 min. No sense to stay more than 6 min.
So at six minutes, store whatever the processor gives and start again. In the example I give above regarding two bad RTPK results agreeing, I was in a medium environment with only 60 second observations. When I tested again with a minimum observation of 180 seconds, I had a much better success rate and no bad solutions that agreed with the next solution. In other words, at three minutes in the medium environment, two agreeable solutions were always correct. These observation times are NOT appropriate for GPS+Glonass data and times will need to increase significantly when the correction data does not include Galileo and Beidou (basically the same as DPOS processing).
Shawn, Thanks for the very thorough write-up of using the LS+ with T3. I've figured out some of what you stated through trial and error, but you added some things I didn't know. Thanks again.
 

Sdrake14

Active Member
First of all, the combo of the LS-Plus and the T3 are brand new. They're both dealing with hardware and firmware that has literally just rolled off the shelf. If there's one thing I've learned in over 6 years of using Javad equipment, it is that it "takes a little time" to get everything set correctly and working properly.

Matthew is 100% correct in that the LS-Plus is, without a doubt, a "different animal". If you take/copy an old "boundary" profile you were using in the standard LS and try it with the Plus unit, you very well may experience what you're describing. The absolute main setting that MUST be changed is the minimum number of engines has to be set at 1. The unit flat out just does not work the same as it did - it works tremendously BETTER! We have, as a fact, shortened our occupying time on ALL points in medium and heavy coverage by at least 50%.

That is not to imply that all of those points make it through "all three phases", because they very rarely do. We get tremendously better, faster redundancy by using a combination of RTK and RTPK. The most extreme of the extreme spots are usually verified by ending up with at least 2 or 3 matching 5 minute+- RTPK solutions (as opposed to previously storing 3 or 4 fifteen minute session and then hoping two match back at the office). The "medium" canopy shots are usually an RTK solution of somewhere around 150-250 seconds, then duplicated and verified by a matching RTPK (which eliminates the need for a 2nd shot as we previously did).

I cannot speak for any performance from the T3 base as I do not have one. I have T1M bases on all 3 of my units, but as far as the LS-Plus being "just garbage", that is simply untrue. You just very likely have anywhere from one to several settings that are incorrect and need adjusting. Take Matthew's and Shawn's advice and call one of them and let them help you get things "smoothed out". There's no way you won't be impressed when you see what this unit will really do!
Darren when you say "minimum number...to 1" is that for verification only or validation also?
 

aaronf187

New Member
Thank you all for the replies. I have since found a video, I'll link below....Which shows how to RTPK and check / validate with the RTK. This has worked wonders for me rather than just sitting and waiting like the older LS. I have had greatly improved the time involved by switching to 1 Engine minimum. So we are getting happier with the LS+ and T3 more every day.

HOWEVER, the older unit LS / T2 seems to keep getting worse in canopy. Yesterday it could barely get a shot in the open about 80 feet from canopy. Ever since an update about 3 months ago our LS / T2 has gone downhill as far as getting fixes and results. When we purchased 2 years ago, it was a beast, and would get any shot we wanted in crazy thick canopy. Has anyone had any issues like this? I just went through the LS settings and found that it was set to 2 Engines instead of the previous 6. I think this has something to do with it!

Video:
 
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