Radios as Repeaters

[Nate The Surveyor]

My 35 watt radio has run with a fan, at 5hz, has been hot with that fan, and finally went back to running at 1hz, and for the last year or so, it's range has been deteriorating. Well, I thought I'd use it ONE more time. I set it to run at 35 watts, and did all I could to get penetration, and range out of it. DEAD. No more signal from that radio. I tried it a good ways off, and up close. The Blue light flickered, the TX light lit every second. The pwr light was on. NOTHING. Battery was hot. I tried one watt, 4 watts, etc. NOPE. That's all she wrote.

You know, RTK does not do well, when Coms are down, with the base... um, no.

I had re-flashed the firmware, last wk, and gotten it going, again, but this time, she died. This was yesterday.

I was faced with RENTING another radio, while this one went home to momma. Or, buying another. I decided to buy another 4 watt one. So, that I can use it as repeater. It will be in this weekend, (hopefully) and I'll get it going (bluetooth handshake and such), and that will let me return to work, while my primary base radio goes home for service.
AFTER it comes back, I want to set the BASE to channel 1, and the ROVER to Channel 2. I want to run with DQPSK, 12.5 band width, on base, AND rover.

Are there any REPEATER users out there, who can tell me if these settings will work?

Another thing, that would be INTERESTING is to be able to RUN on one channel, while monitoring channel 2, on the LS. The big RADIO button (upper right) is nice and big. We could divide it into 3 parts. One for EACH channel, and access more radio settings with the 3rd button.
We could be sitting on a boundary corner. We are receiving corrections on channel 1. (left 1/3 of button is green) and monitoring channel 2 (right 1/3 of radio button). Monitoring says green too. This tells us that BOTH sources are good for this shot. Go to next corner. Now, LEFT side is Yellow, and Red, but right side is GREEN. PUSH right side, and we change channels in the LS, and receive corrections via channel 2.
So, we can now change channels, via one button push. And, we can USE one channel, while monitoring another.

These ideas might only be good for for the "Idea Pile". I don't know if the radio would support 2 channels at this time. However, it would be NICE if it could.

Any other repeater users out there? I work mountains. Trees. Pines. Forests. Creek bottoms. IF this works good (my repeater) it might be an option for us mountain folks, to as a NORMAL part of our work to buy 2 radios.

Any comments?

Thank you!

N

 

[Jon Gramm]

Nate,
I have used what I would call chained repeaters. receive on one channel, broadcast on the next channel up in the frequency list.

All of the radios were broadcasting at 35W.

We saw diminishing returns after the third bounce, but we covered a ridiculous amount of area in extremely rugged terrain, tree cover, and the like.

We were not constrained by accuracy requirements though, (repeatable locations to a few tenths of a foot were more than adequate) so remaining 10 KM from the base or less was not an issue.

The worst issues we experienced were in areas where there were cypress trees. They seemed to kill the radio pretty quickly.
A radio guy told me that he believed it was due to the length of the needles absorbing or diffusing the radio signal. (The length, or combined length of the needles nearly matched the length of our broadcast frequencies.)

 

[Nate The Surveyor]

We saw diminishing returns after the third bounce, but we covered a ridiculous amount of area in extremely rugged terrain, tree cover, and the like.

Sorry about double post. I tried to edit the 1st one, and it created a double post. My internet connection was quite poor.
Anyway, the whole idea is to "cover a ridiculous amount of territory".
I've even thought of a balloon, with repeater hanging below it.
What brand and type gear/radios were you using, with your above situation?
Were they digital radios? Or other?
My old pac crest topcon, with 1/2 wave antenna at both tx and rx end so far yield the best range/penetration. Of course, we are going deeper, and deeper into the impossible w/ modern javad gear. My old topcons were Legacy e's, w pdl 4500 on rover.
I'm looking for ideas, to get more range/penetration with the LS system.
N

 

[Jon Gramm]

Nate,

We have used the Pac Crest PDL's, and ADL's with both Leica (500, 1200, 1230 GG, GS15 & 16), and Trimble (R6, R8, R10) equipment. Wide, and Narrow band units.

The PDL's would typically give us a 12 plus mile working radius on flat ground without issues.

The ADL's would give us about 10 miles.

In Colorado, I have gotten corrections from my base 31 miles away with both an old PDL, and a new ADL. It was not line of sight between the base and rover locations, so there must have been some sort of skip, or the corrections followed the ground. I can't explain that one.

In east Texas (Tyler, Van, Grand Saline, Lindale, Mineola, Sulphur Springs and so on) we could get about eight miles, although with our old custom made VHF system, I was receiving great corrections from our base located in Grand Saline, while I was in Tyler at the survey supply store. That was about 20 miles as the crow flies, with minor terrain shadowing.

Working in the Big Thicket we would typically get about six to seven miles of range from the base. (Wide Band PDL)

We did a project in Oklahoma that covered about 310 square miles with two base station locations, and limited repeater usage.
Decent base locations, but there were some pretty deep creeks, ravines, and river bottoms to deal with.
We also had some fairly thick vegetation for about half of the project, but it did not seem to affect us as much as we had anticipated. (Narrow Band A/PDL)

The projects we had in Arkansas between Bald Knob, and Batesville gave us a few problems, but once again nothing near what we were prepared for.
We had three base locations on that project, and only had to use the repeaters in the very roughest of terrain. There was a lot of fairly rough terrain on that project, and some extremely rough terrain north of Pleasant Plains, and just west of Thida. Lots of big trees on that project as well. (Narrow Band A/PDL)

We covered a project outside of Heber Springs with one base station, but it was on top of a big hill/mountain. That project was nearly 200 square miles of sub-meter mapping, and sub-foot seismic layout. (Narrow Band A/PDL) No repeaters were used on that project to the best of my recollection.

Common to all of the above projects was, we had people scattered to all corners of the projects on any given day, at any given time, married equipment and cabling, and the radio antennas were 25 to 30 feet above ground on Hixon rods.

An attempt was made to use a helium filled mylar weather balloon on a gulf coast transition zone seismic project I was consulting on.
We had to get Coast Guard permission, FAA permission, land owner permission, and every one else's cousin's permission to use the balloon.
It was going to be used to relay telemetry data from seismic data acquisition units to a local storage unit.
The experiment failed miserably.
The balloon was on a 90 foot long tether, with a battery, radio, and radio antenna dangling beneath it.
If the wind blew more than ten miles an hour the balloon would simply roll around on the ground, beating the snot out of all of the equipment.
Several people did not laugh about that one. (Wide Band PDL)
This was not my idea.


This is only anecdotal experience but we have noticed day to day changes in range due to weather, heat, and humidity. One day the corrections will be coming in steadily, and the next day they are sporadic in the same area. Same equipment, same operator, different weather, no other apparent sources of interference.

I have been in west Texas where you could see for 30 miles in every direction, but we would need a repeater if we were more than five miles from the base. It was line of sight between the base and rover.
I really can't explain it, we switched radio modems, frequencies, checked for interference, but nothing seemed to change.

I would someday like to use a Javad repeater setup, but currently, we have no need for one, even though we are working in rough, mountainous terrain. We are receiving corrections from the base with little or no issues.

I am sorry I am not able to be of more help, but there are too many variables to consider when it comes to radio corrections. Sometimes they work when you least expect it, and other times, you end up cussing a lot.

 

[David M. Simolo]

Thanks for your well-stated thoughts Jon.

 

[Nate The Surveyor]

I really have to second Dave Simolo's comments. Thanks Jon.

 

[David M. Simolo]

And I'll bet Jon's information REALLY got your gears turning Nate.

 

[Nate The Surveyor]

Well, yesterday i got my new radio, (4 watt, batt not incl). I got it all paired with my LS. Radio light was GREEN. I carried the LS over to my prism pole bipod. Which has a non-rotating quick release. I set the LS into the quick release. As it bumped the bottom of the socket, radio GREEN suddenly turned yellow, then red.
It seems my whole radio troubles may be in the LS rx radio. It's intermittent.
I don't want to return the 4 watt...
But, i gotta come up with the dough to rent an LS...
My LS is my 2nd LS. 1st one the sound quit in it. They sent me this one, from what i suspect is the "repaired pile", as it had signs of use, before I got it.
But, (yippie) its still under warranty. 3 yrs.
Maybe my radio troubles are soon to end.
I'll want to save all my settings, b4 returning this LS monday. Any idea how?
Thx
Nate

 

[Jon Gramm]

You're welcome!

I wish I could be of more assistance.

I have also noticed that we have what I would call "Hot" radios. Ones that simply work better than the others. When we find them, we assign all of the peripheral equipment used with them, to them exclusively. Batteries, Antennas, cables and so on.

Our crews fight over them. I always win though. I have long arms, am pretty quick, and can turn over a hook really well.

We have an old Pac Crest Blue Brick (96 FM or something like that) and it works better than just about any other radio I have ever seen. Unfortunately it is single frequency, wide band, cannot be programmed for narrow banding. It has never lost its mind, needed to be reprogrammed, or serviced.

I wish we could use lower frequency ranges legally, they just seem to carry better and have better penetration. I have Two/Five watt VHF handhelds that stomp any of the UHF handhelds I have ever been around even when the VHF radios are set to Two watts.

I have read the articles, and talked to a lot of radio experts, and while they all say you get better obstacle penetration with UHF, I can say that from my experience over the years, I would prefer a 35 watt VHF radio over a 35 watt UHF radio any day for transmitting corrections.

I imagine that in a few years, base station radios will become less necessary if the Low Earth Orbit satellite networks that are being planned come to fruition.

 

[Jon Gramm]

Well, yesterday i got my new radio, (4 watt, batt not incl). I got it all paired with my LS. Radio light was GREEN. I carried the LS over to my prism pole bipod. Which has a non-rotating quick release. I set the LS into the quick release. As it bumped the bottom of the socket, radio GREEN suddenly turned yellow, then red.
It seems my whole radio troubles may be in the LS rx radio. It's intermittent.
I don't want to return the 4 watt...
But, i gotta come up with the dough to rent an LS...
My LS is my 2nd LS. 1st one the sound quit in it. They sent me this one, from what i suspect is the "repaired pile", as it had signs of use, before I got it.
But, (yippie) its still under warranty. 3 yrs.
Maybe my radio troubles are soon to end.
I'll want to save all my settings, b4 returning this LS monday. Any idea how?
Thx
Nate

Nate,

Does the radio problem go away when you use an external radio antenna?

That almost sounds like a grounding problem.

 

[Nate The Surveyor]

Jon, you are asking the same question others have asked. The external ant. Has always been worse than internal. Also, it has always sounded like there was something rattling around inside it. My personal feeling is that this LS came from the bone pile of repaired LS's. And as such, something has been "not quite right" from the time I got it.
Again, external antenna has always been worse than internal.
So, it's gotta go see momma.
Maybe it'll get better.
Nate

 

[Jon Gramm]

Sorry Nate!

It is unusual that you would have greater issues with the external antenna, even though it is probably a secondary connection electronically.

I have found that when using the internal antenna, it was sometimes necessary to orient the LS so the internal antenna was facing the base location.
When that starts to occur, I hook up the external antenna, and carry on.

 

[Nate The Surveyor]

Jon,
I rotate it, to get all signal I can. External ant has ALWAYS been worse than internal, with this LS. also, I took the 8 brass screws out, to remove the back cover. Someone has been inside this one before. The batts were in backwards. The plastic pull tabs, (for battery removal) were on the wrong side of the batteries, and the pull tabs were wrinkled up. Also, nothing loose fell out. I could not find anything noticeably wrong, beyond the batteries. I put it back together, and the radio worked. Set it into the quick disconnect, and bam! Lost radio again.
So, I give up. Send her home.
Nate

 

[Jon Gramm]

Okay, really stupid question here.

Does it receive radio if the pole/bipod is not touching the ground?

I am assuming the LS receives radio when the quick connect is disconnected from the pole.

Maybe try another pole if you have one to see if the problem persists.

 

[Nate The Surveyor]

Does it receive radio if the pole/bipod is not touching the ground

Yes, it does. Disconnect, and it maybe eventually gets signal again.

 

[Jon Gramm]

This may sound like I am on glue or something, but I believe that when attached to the rod, and bipod, with all three feet driven into or touching the ground, you are creating an electrical connection if the pole, and bipod legs are ferrous metal. If the pole is carbon fiber, then disregard this thought.

If you have a piece of rubber to act as an insulator, try placing it between the mounting bracket of the bipod, and the prism pole, or try the pole without the bipod.

The other question would be, are you able to wear an old school watch that has hands without it dying in short order?
I have friends that are what you would call reverse polarity. They can't run a compass, wear an old school movement style watch, can't use divining/dowsing rods, and so on.
Most of them are left handed, or started out as left handed and were forced to switch hands at an early age.

Sorry, nothing personal, just curious!

 

[Nate The Surveyor]

Well, Jon, if changing the driveshaft on my truck would help, i'd try it!
I can wear any kind of watch, or use a compass, and such.
But, IF it's the magnetic/electrical component in the pole, (hixon 12') and seco bipod, instead of the "jarring factor", which I have assumed to be true, i have not yet tested that theory. However, if, when radio button is red, i remove i from pole, and turn it screen down, and lightly bump it, it sometimes turns green.
All indicators that i yet see, say "bad connection somewhere".
Now, you make me want to test your "magnetic interference theory", which I've not done.
I think that she's gotta "go see momma" either way.
I should get a check monday, and order the rental one monday. Maybe it'll get here Wed, and i can get her going.
Sigh. LS is good, but if LS does not get corrections, LS is thenceforth not much count...
Thanks Jon for your idea stream.
Nate

 

[Jon Gramm]

Nate,

I agree with you if that is what it takes for it to regain radio link. Sounds like one of my old televisions, pop it upside the head, and I would get a picture.

I have seen so many strange things in 30 years of using GPS, and 40 years of surveying that I was looking for the less than obvious. I try to exhaust the obvious first. Troubleshooting is one of the things I find fascinating with this line of work.

I would send in a detailed account of all the troubles you have experienced, when things worked, and why you think they may have worked after doing what you did to get the LS to work again.

I am glad you can wear a watch, and run a compass! They both come in handy!

Sorry about the LS!

 

[Nate The Surveyor]

If you look on the Javad AR West site, Javad does make, and sell vhf radios. Just not for usa use. Um.. Sales.
What's the highest wattage javad makes?