The round table

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
This thread is for gossip, coffee, and the general discussion which would occur at a coffee shop, it sometimes contains errors, 1/2 truths, conjecture, with a bit of truth, truth with a bit of conjecture. Ya can't believe all you hear at this table, but you can read between the lines and benefit.
Here is my first conjecture.
Our GPS system is aging. This has many meanings. It also means the orbits are old, out of date. We have times of the day when (2 constellations) it's hard to get good data. The satellites are clumped up. No good geometry. When I first got my T-2, LS, 35watt, there was no place I could not go. I could go into impossible places, apply a little patience, and walk away with 3 shots, in 20 minutes. All in agreement, by 0.12'.
Not today. The orbits have aged, and it tends to make it poorer.
This is why the new sats are desirable. They fill in the gaps, left in yesterday's sat orbits.
Which brings me to my next point.where. can I find 20k to upgrade to t-3, and new board in my LS?
Thank you.
(Pass the coffee, would you?)
Nate
 

John Troelstrup

Active Member
Good forum Nate. I like it.
(Heres the coffee Sir..)

Here in Florida, between 2pm and 4pm can be very problematic on some days - even with open sky.
The FPRN is not reliable and I always use my base ( I prefer using it anyway )
I agree with your observation and sentiment. I have noticed increased difficulty over this past year.
Wanting very badly to upgrade my LS to the new constellation - just waiting for the bugs to get worked out.

I have a T1-M and I chose to buy it because I understood that it would always be able to fully receive any future upgrades making it obsolete proof.
The T-3 is sexy looking and I would love to have it...I just dont have the funds to get there anytime soon.
From what I understand - The T1M can not be fully upgraded.

I hope production continues to work on the J-Mate. If it could function as promised, it would fill in very nicely for some gaps in my work-flow where I need to pull out my Robot.
It is an aging Geodimeter - still works great but would prefer to have one system to handle any and all tasks.
(reaches for the sugar)
John
 

Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings
5PLS
Which brings me to my next point.where. can I find 20k to upgrade to t-3, and new board in my LS?

I'm not trying to be in your "business", Nate, but I would say this about that. I have customers who work in wide open spaces. I would not likely recommend the upgrade to a multi-constellation base or Triumph-LS Plus to them. In the open, I'm not sure there would be any performance improvement for them and I'm even less sure they would see a return on their investment.

I would highly recommend the upgrades to my customers working in canopy. The difference in performance between multi-constellation and dual constellation is proving to be significant. Places I would expect to wait for 15-30 minutes (perhaps longer) with GPS and Glonass, I'm getting solid results in 2-5 minutes. This is using an LS Plus with RTPK.

From a business standpoint, you have to do the math and see if it works out. Just because I'm getting some shots much, much faster. It doesn't mean my jobs are all being done in 10% of the time now with newer technology compared to the older technology because the job isn't all fieldwork, I have CAD time and research, etc. It doesn't reduce my total field time by 90% either, because not all of the time is spent observing points. I'm calculating and searching and walking, etc. The faster processing doesn't help with those things. It doesn't even reduce my shot time by 90% because some of my shots are in the open and there is not real time savings in the open with the faster technology. But for my business, the type of jobs I have and the type of environments I'm working in, I'd say I'm getting a solid 30% reduction in field time, which is probably about 15-20% reduction in the overall time spent on a job. If I could make 15% more in a year than what I'm making now because of reclaimed opportunity, how quickly could I make up that $20k. In a year? Two years? etc. If you can't make it up, then it's perhaps more about quality of life. I know I've made some investments that weren't necessarily for profitability but for a better daily work experience. But I couldn't justify a $20k expense for a better work experience personally. But if it makes me more profitable I can't justify not investing in the newer technology.

These percentages are all off the cuff and are preliminary, but hopefully you get the idea. The upgrades will reduce your occupation time on points in challenging environments. The time savings will vary depending on how frequently you will be in those places, but because you perform other tasks other than occupying points with RTK (research, CAD, driving, walking, setup, searching, etc.) the time savings will not be across the board, so you have to estimate what time savings may come from the upgrade. How often are you on a point for longer than 10 minutes? How much time in hours would you save if you were only on those points for 5 minutes? What do you estimate you bill per hour? What would the result be of the hours saved x your per hour billable in a year? This should give you some idea if the expense makes sense. If it does, then it doesn't matter where the $20k comes from because it will be paid back within this timeframe. If it doesn't make sense, then it becomes difficult to justify the $20k even if you have it laying around.
 

avoidthelloyd

Active Member
I expect my LS-Plus to ship to me any day now and have only the LS rental with the T3. I haven't noticed any super-mega-awesome improvements in the heaviest canopy, but I have noticed time-saving on the shots in the middle canopy condition. And because these types of shots are the majority of my work, it has been a noticeable time saver.

One thing I cannot stand about this T3 is why in the world we have to put a Bluetooth antenna on it to use it??? My old T2 would work for a good ways and the LS itself doesn't require one! This is just a bad design flaw. Good forum.
 

Aaron S

Active Member
I'd love to try the T3, and there was supposed to be a free trade-up/trade-in program if you bought a T-1M right before the T3 came out, which I did. Unfortunately I can't get a response from anyone at Javad about that program so I think I'm stuck with the T-1M (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) but if I knew I'd be getting "ghosted" and all my emails ignored, I would have waited and just bought the T3 directly.
 

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
@Aaron S my understanding is that there is a plan to do as you said... But that you would not see a benefit in the swap yet. That is, you will see a benefit later. They are waiting till things are more settled, and there are more units out.
N
 

Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings
5PLS
I'd love to try the T3, and there was supposed to be a free trade-up/trade-in program if you bought a T-1M right before the T3 came out, which I did. Unfortunately I can't get a response from anyone at Javad about that program so I think I'm stuck with the T-1M (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) but if I knew I'd be getting "ghosted" and all my emails ignored, I would have waited and just bought the T3 directly.
I just replied to your email, Aaron. Sorry for the delay.
 

Duane Frymire

Active Member
Finally had a chance to try LS+. I'm using regular LS as Base (same signals as T1M), so no e6 and altboc greyed out.

Difficult shot of monument under very thick hemlock canopy.
My first attempt I wondered if radio would carry, it was only 1000' from base but heavy woods and a couple structures blocking line of sight. Sure enough lost radio 100' from the shot. So, followed procedure I've done in the past; 30min, then 4 - 5min saved for DPOS, then 2 temp points (still in heavy canopy but out from under the hemlock at least, about 24' away measured roughly with pocket steel tape) with 5 min for DPOS to make a triangle for checks. Stopped base when I got back but no message asking if I want to save base file, and can't find a base file. I picked from list in a known coordinate for this base position but didn't see a way to give it a new point number. Will have to figure that out later.

So, moved base to a closer point about 500' away. Now I have rtk and rtpk. Did 3 - 5 min. sessions on the point, and one 5 min. session on each temp point:
Measurements with tape:
tp1 pnt 169 to tp2 pnt 170 = 4.85; to monument = 24.55
tp2 pnt 170 to monument = 22.95

Measurements with LS+:
169 had both rtpk and rtk, 170 had rtk and float rtpk (no solution, should have hit resume until I got one). rtpk to rtk = 4.81; rtk to rtk = 4.87 (used these rtk solutions for temp points).

Monument:
pnt 166: rtk to 169 = 31.77, rtk to 170 = 29.96(didn't make it past stage one) RTPK to 169 = 24.37, RTPK to 170 = 22.78 RTPK wins.

pnt 167: This one tricked me. It actually went through the RTK profile and asked if I wanted to accept, so I did, but too fast and didn't allow RTPK to run, so only RTK solution.
RTK to 169 = 24.44, RTK to 170 = 22.84 RTK is a winner if gets through the profile.

pnt 168: rtk to 169 = 32.07, rtk to 170 = 28.63 (didn't make it past stage one) RTPK to 169 = 24.47, RTPK to 170 = 22.84 RTPK wins again.

Cluster average of pnts 166,167,168 obtained at tolerance of 0.12' (166,167 were 0.06). Record distance from this monument to a monument located with robot in closed loop (0.03 closure) is 503.8, measured result is 503.76. Didn't check against DPOS because no need, but also still don't know where or if the base session is storing on the base LS.

At any rate, With RTPK and LS+, I obtained a reliable solution where I would not have obtained one with T2 and LS rtk, and might not have obtained one even with long session for DPOS but wouldn't have known until post processing anyway. I knew in the field I had a good solution. 25 minutes to known solution v. maybe an hour to unkown (and if turns out no good, a trip back).

I can get a good solution with RTK in areas I couldn't before. And can get an RTPK good solution in areas where I still might not get a good RTK solution.

Limitations are the radio range stuck with 12.5 and D8PSK I can't get as far as I'm used to. And usually have no cell coverage in these areas so can't use rtn to get a base point for the LS base. Any advice appreciated on how to use LS base autonomous and post process. I'm missing something. But overall, I highly recommend the upgrade for those working in challenging GNSS environments. It is expensive, but I can't figure a more economical way to do this kind of work. Too comfortable here to move to the city or the flatlands:)

These hemlocks can have a very large and dense radius canopy making it difficult to locate anything near them. Notice no smaller trees coming up, only ferns and shade loving shrubs within 40-50 feet of the trunk of this thing.
 

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Ryan

Member
I feel your dilemma Nate. At least you have the option to upgrade and it will be there when your ready, it will probably be that much better when you are ready to make the jump. I've thought about buying a second receiver, an LS+ of course, to run two simultaneously on my T1M base. There are quite a few jobs where that would be handy for me. I've had my robot and receivers paid off for a couple of years now and it sure is nice not having any business debt.
I was working on a heavily wooded 24 acre boundary today and there was another survey crew that happened to be surveying one of my adjoiners, a 4 acre tract. We ran into each other a few times through the day and compared notes and I showed them a few monuments that i had recovered that would be of interest for their tract. I was somewhat amused when it took them about 1.5 hours to get a shot on a key angle iron that my standard LS got a full boundary shot on in about 10-15 minutes. Granted they were using what appeared to be a 10 year old Topcon base/rover combo, so not exactly apples to apples but I still felt proud at the performance we were getting comparatively.
 

Aaron S

Active Member
I'll bring the coffee this morning. We had a salesman come out and demo the latest receiver made by a company who's name looks like the word "Trouble". They have a new technology called pro-point (I think that's what it's called) and it's supposed to boost performance in the trees. Others here who use that equipment were very impressed. They've really got everyone mesmerized by their new tech, I guess - people act like this has never been done before.

Anyway, as I watched him taking shots, he got 2 epochs over about 5 minutes on the same shot routine preset (not great, not enough redundancy for my liking). I had to assume the 2 points agreed with each other, because he ended the shot early before it could get the 3 epochs that would apparently be good enough according to their software. I wasn't about to crap on it because I don't know how their processing works - maybe 3 is good enough the way they calculate it. As soon as he left, I took my LS out to the same spot and tried to get the shot (we were both running in internet rover mode via state VRS). I got about 8 single epochs, all over the place, no matches. I didn't expect much because my LS is not the LS+. Another different setup that he got with relative ease I got even quicker, more epochs, and with built in transparency and redundancy - so no win for him on that one.

My rambling point is, is the new LS+ similar in performance to the pro-point? It's hard to compare technology from different brands directly, but are they and Javad trying to accomplish roughly the same thing from different approaches?
 

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
Aaron, I am not sure that anybody can answer that question. The WAY the Javad works, is different, than most everything I have seen.
Here are a few facts.
I have been out in the field, and could not get any fixes, on the Javad. Until, I pressed the "Reset RTK". Even then, It struggled. (I have no idea what was going on)
I have been in total impossible ville, and gotten solid data.
The Javad, with it's resets, and verify, HAS NEVER LIED to me, (except by 0.18', or thereabouts, AND it was string lining.) So, I knew I had poor data potential. It has lied to me, when I rushed it.
With any other brand, ONE fixed epoch is not to be trusted. A cluster of fixed epochs, over a specified time period is the only way to KNOW FOR SURE.
It's my stamp on that plat. There is a REASON I became a fan of this gear. I am NOT saying that somebody else might not come up with something better, but the verification process is hard to beat. I like RTPK.
IF we go out and compare brands, the fact is, you are comparing an iteration of that brand. That is a version. If I got an obstacle course, and shot 50 woods shots in carefully, with a long backsite, and a ROBOT, then went to running all existing brands of GPS over that course, I could develop a SPREAD SHEET, that would give a winner, and 2nd place, 3 place, etc. HOWEVER, in a month or week, that study could be out of date.

I believe that SEVERAL brands of GPS are better than Javad, or nearly better, when comparing the T-2, Radio, and LS, Like I have. (Non LS Plus). I keep my ear on the road. By better, I mean come up with the right answer, faster. BUT that is not the whole thing. What about 100% confidence?

However, the LS Plus, and T-3 Combo, is probably equal to or better than anything out there. The VERIFY process is unbeatable.

So, any study you do, will go out of date, in a week or a month, or 6 months, when doing a side by side compare.
I am FOR a side by side comparison. But, it's hard to keep that current.
Bottom line is: Even if what I have is not the screaming fastest, the confidence is the MOST important to me.
Can you tell me 100% that your shots are within some tolerance? Maybe I have a little Kent McMillan in me. (Not his politics, his surveying).
I have to know, and quantify my errors, to sleep properly.
Confidence is the bottom line.
Say, was that Folgers in the pot?
Thank you,
Nate
 

Aaron S

Active Member
I get what you're saying about it being tough to compare. It's really not an apples to apples thing. We're (the feds) coming up on a deadline to purchase for this fiscal year, and I'm trying to decide whether to pull the trigger on an LS+ upgrade. It's a lot of money honestly (around $5000 if I'm remembering correctly), and I'd like to know if they've got all the kinks worked out and the technology is ready.

For me, the big advantage of the Javad is the transparency and built in redundancy of the verification process. The other guys just don't have that. With theirs, in a difficult environment you'll get maybe 3 epochs, 30 seconds apart (for example), and it's supposed to be good. Maybe it is, but there's no way to see with your own eyes because I don't know any details about those 3 epochs. I like the warm fuzzy feeling of seeing all those "buckets" fill up and the epochs plotting on the screen in real time.

If I upgrade, and our engineers get the newest from the other guys, I'll be sure to do a side by side comparison and let you know the results.
And if I'm making the coffee, it's usually Dunkin Donuts brand. But I'll drink whatever coffee is "on tap".
 

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
A few more additions to cogo:
1). Curve inverse. This allows you to inverse between any 2 points, give it your radius length, and it gives you the arc length. It could also give you the rest of the curve data. Delta, arc, degree, tangent, etc.
It can also create coords breaking that curve into 4 equal spaces, or whatever number is desired.

2.) Intersection by right angle.
It prompts:
By Brg from first point, or Distance from first point ? B/D? (You select here)
1st point?________
2nd point?________
(Then it prompts for either a brg, or a dist, depending on the above B/D)
Enter the brg, and it creates a coord at 90 degrees from both 1st and 2nd points.
Enter a distance, and it prompts (L) Left or (R) Right of 1-2, pick one, and it creates a coord forming a right triangle.
These are fast and handy field calcs. Especially for construction staking, or working highway curves.
Of course, it will eventually need to be able to enter a pc-PT-rp and assign a station to the PC or PT, and then you can stake anything by station and offset.
Make it simple.
Thanks,
Nate
 

Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings
5PLS
I'm glad you brought that up. A long time ago I asked about an Offset intersection, but it wasn't a priority at the time and I forgot about it too. So when I run into cases where I need to calculate an offset intersection I create more points than I need and it takes me twice as long as it should. Ideally, I'd just like to do it graphically on the Map using CAD like tools.

Also, yes, we need more curve routines.
 

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
We sure would LIKE it if Javad website, were updated, so that we could find stuff, click on it, use a credit card, (secure web site), and buy stuff, as needed. I'm going to argue that there is a broad enough user base, who are knowledgeable enough, to click and buy.
And, that we could get it faster. Many of the items on the site are Expendables. Wires, antennas, etc. Personally, I'd like it if the javad site had my credit card on file. So I could COMPLETE a purchase in less than 2 minutes, and that it would arrive quite quickly as available.
As it is, going through the site, and through a member of the 5 pls team, and then sending a personal check, and then Mayette has to get the check, and deposit it, and then when it clears, the order is placed. It's too clunky.
De-clunk the web site, and the purchase process. Many of us would appreciate it. In fact, I'll guess that many feel this way.
Modern cutting edge equipment deserves a modern cutting edge web site.
Thank you.
Nate
 

Sdrake14

Active Member
I'm not trying to be in your "business", Nate, but I would say this about that. I have customers who work in wide open spaces. I would not likely recommend the upgrade to a multi-constellation base or Triumph-LS Plus to them. In the open, I'm not sure there would be any performance improvement for them and I'm even less sure they would see a return on their investment.

I would highly recommend the upgrades to my customers working in canopy. The difference in performance between multi-constellation and dual constellation is proving to be significant. Places I would expect to wait for 15-30 minutes (perhaps longer) with GPS and Glonass, I'm getting solid results in 2-5 minutes. This is using an LS Plus with RTPK.

From a business standpoint, you have to do the math and see if it works out. Just because I'm getting some shots much, much faster. It doesn't mean my jobs are all being done in 10% of the time now with newer technology compared to the older technology because the job isn't all fieldwork, I have CAD time and research, etc. It doesn't reduce my total field time by 90% either, because not all of the time is spent observing points. I'm calculating and searching and walking, etc. The faster processing doesn't help with those things. It doesn't even reduce my shot time by 90% because some of my shots are in the open and there is not real time savings in the open with the faster technology. But for my business, the type of jobs I have and the type of environments I'm working in, I'd say I'm getting a solid 30% reduction in field time, which is probably about 15-20% reduction in the overall time spent on a job. If I could make 15% more in a year than what I'm making now because of reclaimed opportunity, how quickly could I make up that $20k. In a year? Two years? etc. If you can't make it up, then it's perhaps more about quality of life. I know I've made some investments that weren't necessarily for profitability but for a better daily work experience. But I couldn't justify a $20k expense for a better work experience personally. But if it makes me more profitable I can't justify not investing in the newer technology.

These percentages are all off the cuff and are preliminary, but hopefully you get the idea. The upgrades will reduce your occupation time on points in challenging environments. The time savings will vary depending on how frequently you will be in those places, but because you perform other tasks other than occupying points with RTK (research, CAD, driving, walking, setup, searching, etc.) the time savings will not be across the board, so you have to estimate what time savings may come from the upgrade. How often are you on a point for longer than 10 minutes? How much time in hours would you save if you were only on those points for 5 minutes? What do you estimate you bill per hour? What would the result be of the hours saved x your per hour billable in a year? This should give you some idea if the expense makes sense. If it does, then it doesn't matter where the $20k comes from because it will be paid back within this timeframe. If it doesn't make sense, then it becomes difficult to justify the $20k even if you have it laying around.
one time years ago when I was a struggling part chief working in frozen Michigan winter I encountered a fellow on a dozer I was setting stakes for and on my comment about my frozen feet in cheap boots led him to mention his $3oo boots and toasty feet, with a smile, he said ya know, I'd spend $300 a year to keep my feet warm at work, I have to do this and misery I can control not an option. From that day I NEVER worried about the additional cost of the right gear to keep me comfortable in the nasty, narly, hostile enviroments we work in. I do my work and focus on what matters, comfortably, and I do not waste time because I was shivering in a $50 parka, in the rain at 38 degrees, 25mph wind.....
 

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
Well, now that we've got RTPK, do we really need DPOS, for base to rover processing? Should we turn off base to rover in DPOS?
I'd think that DPOS would improve RTPK, because it is being done in a less stressful environment. But, is that true? Maybe DPOS could cover up a good RTPK Observation?
I've learned that some users use a local Rtn, to set up their base coord. Then, use DPOS to double check it. But, they have base to rover turned off.
So, which one is more rigorous, and what suggestions would you make?
Thanks
Nate
 
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