M-local with surveyed design points

[John Thompson]

Is is possible to use the design coordinates of a point as "known" and the surveyed coordinates of the same point as "surveyed" in an M-local?

I used stake instead of collect to store a surveyed point and now I want to add it to my M-local but I can't figure out how. Do I need to re-collect that point?

 

[Adam]

John, please give me a little more detail. Off the top of my head I would think staked survey points should be in the same system as the design point.

 

[Adam]

Did you use accept or accept as? If you used the accept as whitebox, it should work. If you used accept, I think you may have to re-collect.

 

[Darren Clemons]

Did you use accept or accept as? If you used the accept as whitebox, it should work. If you used accept, I think you may have to re-collect.

Yes, I haven't found, as of now, ANY way to do anything with a design point collected in stake mode when just accept is used. It stores a "surveyed" coordinate alongside the design coordinate but there is no way to use it or separate it. I've done this countless times by accident and have to reshoot. Wish there was a way to go into that "As Staked" coordinate and just change it to the next point number.

 

[John Thompson]

Wish there was a way to go into that "As Staked" coordinate and just change it to the next point number.

I suppose you could export surveyed design points and re-import them. That's a bit cumbersome, though.

 

[John Thompson]

I don't mean to pile on, but like Darren, I don't see a lot of advantage to surveyed design points. I've given it some thought and here's what I've come up with for their advantages.

They are easy to create with a single press of the accept button.
They don't clutter the map with a separate point number.
They allow you to skip already staked points when staking a bunch of points.
There are no doubt others. Help me out here.

If I had my druthers, the association would be made the other way. Rather than having a single set of surveyed coordinates associated with a design point, instead, save every surveyed point as its own point and associate a design point with each surveyed point that is saved with Stake. Accept would always do the same as Accept As and prompt for point name, code, attributes, page, etc. But J-Field would remember which design point I was staking when I saved that surveyed point and in the points screen for the surveyed point, it would show the deltas (N,E,U) from that design point. That way I could survey a design point multiple times (check shots) and for each surveyed point quickly see how far from design each is without inversing. J-Field would still be able to keep track of which points have been staked so it could skip already staked points.

This is probably not a quick, easy software change and it would probably mess something else up, it looks to me like it would be much more useful.

 

[Nate The Surveyor]

I know that what I'm about to say, may not be too popular with the designers of the Javad software, but, here it goes.
I USE stakeout, and Stakeout to line all the time, to LOCATE stuff...NO NOT THAT WAY!

This is where the conversation falls apart.

I use it to stake stuff that is FAR FAR away from where any coords are made. I want to SEARCH for a corner 5280' from a previous one. I want to search for a corner 9240' from a previous one. I am FAR away from the point I'm staking. I am USING the stake to line via 2 points, just to NAVIGATE to the vicinity of the unknown corner.
I use it in this manner MORE than I do to stake corners.
As such, and in these instances, I do NOT want the point I find to be associated with the point I am staking.
In fact, (back in the TEE DEE USS That's TDS) days, I had to request that it be allowed to STAKE a line, with a NEGATIVE station, of greater than a mile, distance. They actually had a LIMIT on the negative station.
Now, having said this, I would LIKE to be able to CONFIGURE what button is GREEN, in the STAKE screen.
I want to be able to MAKE the ACCEPT AS button, to be GREEN. I at this point have NO use for 2 points with the same number. (one is Number 72 Collected, and one is 72 design). I can see the use of having 2 points with the same number. But, at this point it is rare. And, I want the button that is NOW GREEN in the stake screen to be GRAYED OUT.

Just the other day, I was searching for a SECTION corner, in a road, and got distracted by a Chicken Feed Truck, with all kinds of dust, and noise, and accidentally pushed the GREEN button, instead of "ACCPET AS". This "HID" my shot on that point, and I spent an hour searching and trying to figure out what had happened to my coord. All it was was a C/L shot, in close vicinity to the Section corner. But, it was stored with it's own description, and it's own name. Really killed me.
It would even be better, if I could SWAP their locations, as well as their colors. This way, the habit of pushing the green button would not get me. There was a considerable amount of dust from that chicken feed truck. The pole was a bit tall, and I pushed the GREEN BUTTON, when I mean to push ACCEPT AS.
Now, I know, being mentally alert is good, and all, but with HIGH DISTRACTIONS, and dirt in the air, it is a NO GO.
I suspect this is a hard change. But, nonetheless, I think it would make it better for all of us.

Thanks,

Nate

 

[Nate The Surveyor]

I will add that I have RENAMED that point to be number 136 in the LS, but it now won't export it. It does not come up in the export list. It is frustrating. I had previously uploaded it, into CARLSON, and it's name and description was... I cannot find it. It still shows up on the screen of the LS, under POINTS, but I cannot export it. I tried exporting all project points. I have one other point like this. I find is stored under design points. I am learning to "Work AROUND" by renaming stuff in the word processor, before bringing it into ACAD. But, this is a work around. It is not straightforward. Basically "BEWARE the green button, in stakeout" has become my guide.
Thanks.
N

 

[Adam]

Did you have Surveyed design points checked too.

 

[John Thompson]

Nate,

I often use stake for distant searches like you describe, so it's not always beneficial to associate design coordinates to a staked survey point. Maybe something like this would work for both situations.

Have the green Accept button accept the point as a new point with the point name, code, etc. shown in the Accept As white box. Then have the Accept As screen have a checkbox that allows the design point to be associated with the surveyed point or not.

 

[Darren Clemons]

I know that what I'm about to say, may not be too popular with the designers of the Javad software, but, here it goes.
I USE stakeout, and Stakeout to line all the time, to LOCATE stuff...NO NOT THAT WAY!

This is where the conversation falls apart.

I use it to stake stuff that is FAR FAR away from where any coords are made. I want to SEARCH for a corner 5280' from a previous one. I want to search for a corner 9240' from a previous one. I am FAR away from the point I'm staking. I am USING the stake to line via 2 points, just to NAVIGATE to the vicinity of the unknown corner.
I use it in this manner MORE than I do to stake corners.
As such, and in these instances, I do NOT want the point I find to be associated with the point I am staking.
In fact, (back in the TEE DEE USS That's TDS) days, I had to request that it be allowed to STAKE a line, with a NEGATIVE station, of greater than a mile, distance. They actually had a LIMIT on the negative station.
Now, having said this, I would LIKE to be able to CONFIGURE what button is GREEN, in the STAKE screen.
I want to be able to MAKE the ACCEPT AS button, to be GREEN. I at this point have NO use for 2 points with the same number. (one is Number 72 Collected, and one is 72 design). I can see the use of having 2 points with the same number. But, at this point it is rare. And, I want the button that is NOW GREEN in the stake screen to be GRAYED OUT.

Just the other day, I was searching for a SECTION corner, in a road, and got distracted by a Chicken Feed Truck, with all kinds of dust, and noise, and accidentally pushed the GREEN button, instead of "ACCPET AS". This "HID" my shot on that point, and I spent an hour searching and trying to figure out what had happened to my coord. All it was was a C/L shot, in close vicinity to the Section corner. But, it was stored with it's own description, and it's own name. Really killed me.
It would even be better, if I could SWAP their locations, as well as their colors. This way, the habit of pushing the green button would not get me. There was a considerable amount of dust from that chicken feed truck. The pole was a bit tall, and I pushed the GREEN BUTTON, when I mean to push ACCEPT AS.
Now, I know, being mentally alert is good, and all, but with HIGH DISTRACTIONS, and dirt in the air, it is a NO GO.
I suspect this is a hard change. But, nonetheless, I think it would make it better for all of us.

Thanks,

Nate

Nate, we have dealt with this since day one with the LS. I use it ALL the time as you describe, staking to a point or line but wanting a new "survey" point when I get to or find what I'm looking for. Sure, it's easy enough to just hit collect to go into the collect screen to collect the point but so, so many times, as you say I've been distracted for one reason or another (have to say never by a chicken feed truck ) but maybe a phone call, field guys asking questions, etc and before you know it I've hit green accept and poof - that point is nowhere to be found.
How about something as simple as this - when we are in stake mode and it finishes an RTK shot and we hit the green accept (not accept as white box) it knows we're staking to a design point or staking to a line so it gives us two options: do you want to store a new independent survey point here or do you want to attach a surveyed coordinate to your existing design point.
Actually I'm with John, I really don't even need the second option and never have. I NEVER want any of my RTK shots to be associated with my design coordinates. They were just to aid in helping me find the point. Every point I shoot weather it be in collect, stake to points or stake to line I want a new independent surveyed coordinate.

 

[Adam]

Nate, we have dealt with this since day one with the LS. I use it ALL the time as you describe, staking to a point or line but wanting a new "survey" point when I get to or find what I'm looking for. Sure, it's easy enough to just hit collect to go into the collect screen to collect the point but so, so many times, as you say I've been distracted for one reason or another (have to say never by a chicken feed truck ) but maybe a phone call, field guys asking questions, etc and before you know it I've hit green accept and poof - that point is nowhere to be found.
How about something as simple as this - when we are in stake mode and it finishes an RTK shot and we hit the green accept (not accept as white box) it knows we're staking to a design point or staking to a line so it gives us two options: do you want to store a new independent survey point here or do you want to attach a surveyed coordinate to your existing design point.
Actually I'm with John, I really don't even need the second option and never have. I NEVER want any of my RTK shots to be associated with my design coordinates. They were just to aid in helping me find the point. Every point I shoot weather it be in collect, stake to points or stake to line I want a new independent surveyed coordinate.

I think it depends on the type of work. For boundary I agree one hundred percent. For construction stake out I like to have the survey and design point linked. I think making it an option after pressing accept, that you have to pick every time would really slow down the construction stake out flow. It would be good to have the setting under Stake Points Mode.

 

[Darren Clemons]

I think it depends on the type of work. For boundary I agree one hundred percent. For construction stake out I like to have the survey and design point linked. I think making it an option after pressing accept, that you have to pick every time would really slow down the construction stake out flow. It would be good to have the setting under Stake Points Mode.

Very true. Good points. I don't do much construction stakeout but thinking it through that would be the benefit of having it linked and would be cumbersome to have to choose every time.
Best thing is, like Nate says, stay away from green button when staking on a boundary.

 

[Nate The Surveyor]

OK, by telling it "All Project Points" it does "Find" point 136. And, puts it in the export file.

Also, I think we are all discussing two very different issues here. For construction staking, it's probably good to have the points linked.
IF we had a way to SELECT whether or not the GREEN button in STAKE linked the points, or CREATED a new point, that would suffice.
I goofed one of them, and it was cumbersome to find what happened to it.

Just a setting in the STAKE screen, so that it can "Save Staked Points, LINKED to Project Points" OR Save AS SEPARATE POINTS, I think is a good answer. This way, the GREEN button is what gets used, both times. This would keep both survey types happy. It would allow both.
Thank you
Nate

 

[John Thompson]

I agree with all 3 of you. I normally do boundary work that has little use for surveyed design points, but I just finished a construction staking job for a power line that went much faster than I was planning just because the LS is so efficient. So I can see both sides.

I still would rather have the link between surveyed and design run the other direction. I can think of lots of reasons to stake a point more than once. To me, it makes more sense from a data structure standpoint that a design coordinate can be staked multiple times, but a staked coordinate can have only one target coordinate.

 

[Nate The Surveyor]

Staking a point more than once... ahhh yes, I've done that. I worked const stking in Chicago. Big earth work project. Stake same point 13 times... that's normal! Software for const staking could allow an infinite number of times a point gets staked.
I have been thinking of ways to do that...And store it, AS it is staked, so that there is a record of how much earth was moved up to that date.... hmmm

 

[Nate The Surveyor]

Now that gets me to thinking...

 

[Mikhail Drakin]

We agree that having surveyed and design coords put together in one point was bad idea, and it should have been just links between different points (with option of not creating such links). But currently it would take too much effort to rework the data structure. Probably during next major software redesign whenever it occurs.
But making an option to swap Accept/Accept As functions (that is, adding an option to make Accept As the default) is realistic. I'll see what can be done.