How the LS handles Coordinate files

Nate The Surveyor

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
Carlson decided to make the files in their data collector, 100% identical to the ones in their office software... which means, if you make a temporary coord, for a point, modify it in the field, with their data collector, then, return to office, and transfer the whole file to the Office Carlson Survey, then the field file, and the office files are identical.

Now, I just got off the phone, with another JAVAD LS user, who told me that if you go to the field, shoot 300 field shots, transfer them Via the Thumb drive, to an ascii file, work on the file, and add coords, so now there are 450 coords, and then transfer the WHOLE file, 450 coords, to the LS, AND you tell the LS to OVERWRITE the coords, then all those first 300 become now DESIGN points, and are no longer SURVEY points? Is this true?

I am a very pedantic person... I will make me a little list of coords to carry back, and forth, however I have not yet worked out the BEST data flow for points.

How do you do it?

Is there a WAY to overwrite ONLY design points, but NOT SURVEY points?

I have done this: Go to POINTS menu. Select DESIGN points. ALL design points come up. Press and hold the RED X button, with the little down arrow. The LS then prompts "Do you want to delete ALL (213) design points" <No> <Yes> and you tell it YES and it then deletes all DESIGN points. Now, when you upload the WHOLE file, you tell it NOT to overwrite anything.... And, it now skips the ones that are SURVEY points.

Now, I can see this working.... pretty good, and is an ok method. But, I wanted some feedback from other users. How do you do it?

I can see an error potential, with the ABILITY to overwrite SURVEY points. I'd like to see a check box, that ALLOWS you to LOCK all SURVEY points, so they cannot be overwritten. OR, maybe I think that. Maybe others have a better data flow.

There is a reason I am posting this... I'll go into more details later.

N
 
Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings
5PLS
Now, I just got off the phone, with another JAVAD LS user, who told me that if you go to the field, shoot 300 field shots, transfer them Via the Thumb drive, to an ascii file, work on the file, and add coords, so now there are 450 coords, and then transfer the WHOLE file, 450 coords, to the LS, AND you tell the LS to OVERWRITE the coords, then all those first 300 become now DESIGN points, and are no longer SURVEY points? Is this true?

Yes, this is absolutely true. You've overwritten the survey points which means that they are gone. You've replaced them with text import, just like any other design point. This is definitely not the way to go.

Is there a WAY to overwrite ONLY design points, but NOT SURVEY points?
I have done this: Go to POINTS menu. Select DESIGN points. ALL design points come up. Press and hold the RED X button, with the little down arrow. The LS then prompts "Do you want to delete ALL (213) design points" <No> <Yes> and you tell it YES and it then deletes all DESIGN points. Now, when you upload the WHOLE file, you tell it NOT to overwrite anything.... And, it now skips the ones that are SURVEY points.

This is how I do this as well. I also import coordinates into a separate page from the page that I collect points in as an added measure of separation. Ultimately if you agree to overwrite survey points, you will lose the survey data.
 
Adam

Adam

Well-Known Member
5PLS
What modifications are you doing to the survey points in the office that would make you need to export them from the office back into the LS? I operate with my Carlson files just like you do, using the same coordinate file in the office and in the field most of the time. I have just been exporting the design points I need into the LS, which are usually points from the total station, calculated points, etc.
 
Adam

Adam

Well-Known Member
5PLS
There is one scenario when I import the survey points back into the LS and this is when I am using the survey points in a Least Squares Adjustment. When I do this I have been creating a new job and importing them as design points so I still have the original Job with the original survey points. After talking with Shawn about this before, I am starting to see no reason to adjust the LS data with the Total Station data. As a matter of fact I am trying to not traverse much at all with my TS.
 
Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings
5PLS
Don't let me talk you out of LSA altogether. Definitely a time and a place for it. But if you just have radial RTK points with no redundancy or cross ties between endpoints of vectors, I don't see any point in it.

I agree about traversing. We traversed the world, even with static GPS. We don't do much traversing anymore. Just not much need for it.
 
Adam

Adam

Well-Known Member
5PLS
Shawn Billings said:
Don't let me talk you out of LSA altogether. Definitely a time and a place for it. But if you just have radial RTK points with no redundancy or cross ties between endpoints of vectors, I don't see any point in it.

I agree about traversing. We traversed the world, even with static GPS. We don't do much traversing anymore. Just not much need for it.
Click to expand...

I still use LSA, I have been inserting the control points from the Triumph LS in as control and using the standard error for the points that is typical of what I see in the good enviroments where control is usually set. I still have to traverse in some places around here, but traversing is going to get less and less with Hybrid Rtk.
 
Nate The Surveyor

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
This subject could use more thought and consideration.
It's the apparent "Biggest error potential" in the LS.

I'll be thinking.
N
 
Nate The Surveyor

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
Matt, I do the same.... but the default in Carlson is to export the WHOLE file. I can see this (before coffee) really messing things up. (What if you have a new guy?)
Default setting could be NEVER overwrite survey files.
This is where the "Points Dashboard" could be used. As in:

1.) Never allow Survey Points to be overwritten.
2.) Only allow DPOS to overwrite SURVEY POINTS (With Permission) It asks permission, BEFORE adjusting them.
3.) Allow Survey Points to be overwritten.

It's a "point of potential blunders".

N
 
Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings
5PLS
DPOS never "overwrites" points. DPOS provides alternative solutions. The user can select which solution he wants and then switch back to the other solution again.

File management, by nature is serious business and needs to be done with care.

The test version of software you are using will eventually be set to adjust autonomous base positions automatically. Bases with entered coordinates will be adjusted with user permission.

Survey points are only overwritten by J-Field if the user surveys the survey point again.
 
Nate The Surveyor

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
O, wow, I did not know it would allow you to "Survey Point Again". And, overwrite it. I have deleted a point, and RESHOT the same number.

N
 
Nate The Surveyor

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
A strange little corollary of this is the following scene:
You use Stake Point, to measure 210 feet west of a particular corner. You get close, scuff the ground, use the pin finder, and shovel, and dig it out. Set on it, and it is bent some. So, you know the record distance is 210' and you want to look, and see if it may have been deliberately set at an angle, to get the top correct. Up walks another surveyor, who wants to see your fine new Javad. (It's new every day, as updates come out!) So, you proudly show it off, under the tree. You have set the setting very strict, to make sure it is good shot. Sure enough, if you "Straightened" the rebar, it would be off by some 0.20' But, leaving it leaning, makes it close to perfect, for the 210'. So, you press the GREEN button.
And, it stores the point. Then, you realize I SHOULD HAVE USED ACCEPT AS........ O well, I renumber the point later.... But, you forget. While downloading the coords later, there it is! STK_505,xxxxxx,xxxxxx with a description, "Number 505 as staked" And, you remember. So, you manually change the name, on the USB thumb drive. Then, it goes into ACAD, and you then remember to change the point Description too.
Then, you figure out, that you should delete all the design points in the LS. So, Hold down the red button, and it asks, "Delete all Design Points" And, you do it.
Then, you go back out, and that point is GONE. It is NOT in the LS. It was STORED as a piggy back, on that design point, and it is gone. So, it is NOT a survey point, but, at least you have it at home..... NOT in the field. And, every time you clear out the design points, you are going to loose this point.
So, What is the plan? I am not really for or against this... I want to learn what the BIG pic is. MAYBE when you delete design points, it should NOT delete design points, that have a piggy back coord on them? Or, it should be an option, to delete design points, and to delete design points, WITH field data associated, or WITHOUT field data?
I'm not fully got my mind made up. But, losing this field point is a nuisance!
Or, being able to delete points 500..504 506..525 and etc.
I know, I can go and check mark the ones to be deleted, or go back, and UNCHECK the ones to be not deleted. Or something.
Maybe, we could have a status for design points that are DO NOT DELETE, or overwrite. If their little check box is checked, then it becomes NON DELETE-able.
I'm just wanting to discuss it.
And, I want to say that the incredible GPS performance, is awesome.
Now, if we can get our minds fully wrapped on stuff.

Of course, maybe we could SWITCH the Green, and White buttons. That is, the green button does a normal STORE POINT, just like over in COLLECT. And, make the white Box, "accept as" into another name, "Save point, with staked point" or something. This would be my preference.

It's the distractions, we sometimes get, while in the field, and having GREEN is GOOD, On the collect side, and then, the Green Button, should NOT be used on the STAKE side. And, you tend to forget, unless, you are paying attention. There are distractions. Big truck... coming. Whatever. Have you ever been working behind the fence, when a train slowly comes to a stop, some 30' away.... and then all of a sudden, the engineer hits the throttle, and BANGGGG! all the slack comes out of the links between the cars. VERY UN-NERVING. First time it happened to me, I thought a jet airliner had crashed right next to me. I jumped plumb out of my skin.
Then, the cell phone rings. Then the text msg. Then, the adjoining little old lady, who is anything but nice..... "Young Man, What are you doing out here this time? I thought I told you the corner is OVER HERE!" Distractions. Diplomacy. Where was I? Oh, green button..... OOPS!!

Hey, its got to be fun.

N
 
Nate The Surveyor

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
Making it so that you CANNOT overwrite survey points is a very good thing.

Having worked for an engineering firm, in Chicago, in 1985 And 1986, there is a basic data flow, that I think I should mention. We had SDR 33's! (Remember those!) we would go to the field, with all our control network loaded into them. This would be a group of coords. That was identical (all on the same job) and, we would shoot around 700 coords a day. 4 man crew, 2 guys on prisms, set to the same HR. (Height of rod, or prism.) The office guys would download them every evening. The control points were 1-150. Then, we'd usually start at point 300, And work all day. Back at the office, they'd save, and re-number those field shots. So that we always started each day at 300.
How this pertains to the situation at hand, is I'd like to see the ability to easily clear certain blocks, or groups of coords, from the LS, and save their raw data, with them. So that, we could have a main job folder, and one or several days of work can be removed as a job progresses. What I am thinking about, is those bigger projects, such as designing a road, through an area, where multiple crews, are going to be working, and it all has to be integrated at the office, and made to flow together, by a project head. There could be a Static Control Station set every 1-2 miles or so, and alot of work get done, this way. Typically the way these are done is with Total Station, based on Static GPS control. I have some friends that would greatly benefit from this equipment. So, being able to store large point files, and being able to upload them to a main PC, with their associated raw data, (to keep the data cohesive) would be desirable. Discussion? I can see some serious production, with several well trained field guys, and some office guys, that know how it works, and integrates.
Thank you!
N
 
Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings
5PLS
If I understand you correctly, Nate, pages would accomplish this, I think. Make a page for each day. You can set the points display to only show one page. If you want to delete all of the points in that page (provided all others are disabled), you can use the long press on the red X to delete all visible points.

Use one page for control. These would be segregated from your survey points, etc.
 
Nate The Surveyor

Nate The Surveyor

Well-Known Member
Sounds like we are approaching the SAME problem.
Me from the Problem point of view, and you from the ANSWER point of view. The only thing I can think of more, is a DATE segregation device, to select all data, from a certain date, and transfer it to a certain page. Occasionally I have gotten my page wrong... (could happen with a crew...) and this would provide a fast remedy.
So, when's that next release coming? he he

Nate
 
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