Topcon and Javad

[Patrick Garner]

I was contacted by a major site contractor today. The company works throughout New England and does $50-100 construction projects. The P.E. I spoke to said they are a Topcon shop, and typically have a surveyor set initial project control, then they "take it from there," staking all roads, parking, buildings, etc. Their Topcons are getting old, and he is thinking about a shift to Javad.

In my Javad learning curve, I've focused on stuff I usually do--boundary, topo, as-builts. Staking of course is the one component I figured I'd learn when I needed to...

So, one of my two questions is, 'How does the Javad LS's staking routines compare to Topcon's?' (I have no idea and need some pros and cons, if anyone has that experience), and

'How does pricing compare?' He seemed to think Javad's prices were very similar to Topcon's, and he thought they would be far more competitive. I told him I'd get back to him in the next day or so.

Any help would be appreciated!

 

[Patrick Garner]

I was contacted by a major site contractor today. The company works throughout New England and does $50-100 construction projects. The P.E. I spoke to said they are a Topcon shop, and typically have a surveyor set initial project control, then they "take it from there," staking all roads, parking, buildings, etc. Their Topcons are getting old, and he is thinking about a shift to Javad.

In my Javad learning curve, I've focused on stuff I usually do--boundary, topo, as-builts. Staking of course is the one component I figured I'd learn when I needed to...

So, one of my two questions is, 'How does the Javad LS's staking routines compare to Topcon's?' (I have no idea and need some pros and cons, if anyone has that experience), and

'How does pricing compare?' He seemed to think Javad's prices were very similar to Topcon's, and he thought they would be more competitive. (I promised to get back to him on that.)

Any help would be appreciated!

 

[Patrick Garner]

Hmm, ignore that second post. It's mine. It's late. It's in error!

 

[Matthew D. Sibole]

I'm doing a demo on Tuesday for someone who just bought a Topcon base rover system for 42-45K. You can get two base rover system from Javad for the same price.

As far as staking is concerned it is just as easy or easier with Javad. The ability to stake out based on the orientation of the "box" instead of based on north or where the base is sitting is great!

You can build cross sections and templates for standard sections for roadway staking. However, the standard sections, cross sections and profiles need to be built in Jfield. That is the only real downfall that I see in it.

 

[Matt Johnson]

You can build cross sections and templates for standard sections for roadway staking. However, the standard sections, cross sections and profiles need to be built in Jfield. That is the only real downfall that I see in it.

Profiles can be imported from XML files or from selecting an existing polyline that was imported from a dwg file. See https://support.javad.com/index.php?threads/staking-roads.1941/ and https://support.javad.com/index.php?threads/importing-importing-alignment.1116/

 

[Patrick Garner]

Thanks, Matt and Matt.

Pricing. Has anyone compiled a working comparison of Javad prices vs. Topcon, Trimble, Leica etc? I'm heading in that direction but if such a table exists, save me from the research! (Thnx)

 

[Matthew D. Sibole]

I do not. It is hard to pin down pricing of the competitors unless you get a quote from them. They do not readily advertise their prices.

 

[Patrick Garner]

Still, I think we can develop a list that reflects general pricing to make comparisons. On such a list Javad's prices can be exact, competitors can be "Prices May Vary" or something similar, but reflective of median quotes. It's not difficult to go on the web and find advertised prices for other makers, just takes time. The other thing is that other makers will readily discount, whereas Javad won't. Another difficulty is that it may be impossible to do an apples to apples as the LS is so advanced and other makers don't really offer a comparative product.

Still... I'll begin to work up a comparison list and circulate it to J-Team folks for critique before using it.

 

[Matt Johnson]

Thanks, Matt and Matt.

Pricing. Has anyone compiled a working comparison of Javad prices vs. Topcon, Trimble, Leica etc? I'm heading in that direction but if such a table exists, save me from the research! (Thnx)

Pricing exist from some dealers on the internet:

Topcon GR-5 Base and Rover: $34650.00
Topcon FC-500 Data Collector: $1650.00
Topcon Magnet Fields Roads and GPS Software for Data Collector: $1500.00
Total: $37,800

Trimble R10 Base and Rover with TSC3 and Trimble Access: $56,495.00

Lecia Base and Rover: $51580.00
Lecia CS20 Data Collector and Software: $7450.00
Total: $59,030

​

 

[Jim Frame]

To be fair, you'd have to add about $4,500 (the price of a good data collector and software) to bring the Javad functionality up to par with the Topcon, Trimble and Leica packages, since all of the latter can operate a total station. Javad still compares favorably.

 

[Matt Johnson]

We would also need to add post processing software to the other brands too then since they do not offer any built-in or cloud based post processing.

Topcon Magnet Office with Post Processing is $2500

 

[Jim Frame]

We would also need to add post processing software to the other brands too then since they do not offer any built-in or cloud based post processing.

Fair enough, for a strict apples-to-apples comparison. But the incremental value of client-server post-processing isn't anywhere near the incremental value of total station capability, in my opinion. OPUS does a pretty good job -- not as robust as DPOS, to be sure -- and is available to all without cost.

Although I've used DPOS a few times to try it out, I haven't found it very useful in my work. On the other hand, I rely heavily on in-house post-processing for a subset of my clients, which requires me to maintain some pricey software. I wouldn't expect that cost to be included in a comparison of RTK offerings, but very few survey operations can do without a total station.

 

[Phillip Lancaster]

To be fair, you'd have to add about $4,500 (the price of a good data collector and software) to bring the Javad functionality up to par with the Topcon, Trimble and Leica packages, since all of the latter can operate a total station. Javad still compares favorably.

So what your saying Jim. If Javad had oh........I don't know. Maybe a way to control a Leica/Geomax ROBOT using JField it would be more comparable. It would be tough to get those drivers for the Geomax/Leica gun. If only someone had a way or a connection. Hmmmm.

 

[Darren Clemons]

Definitely depends on the company and situation Jim. Sounds like you have certain clients and projects where a total station is still necessary but for most of us LS users, working where we work: Javad LS with its checks/precision and accuracy > total station and traverse error - all day long and three times on Thursday!
I'm talking rough, extremely steep large boundaries which would require days and days of stations. Don't care what kind of closure you end up getting when you complete your loop, the overall accuracy of each point will not beat what this LS will produce (with the appropriate accuracy settings, averaging (if required) and time spent on each point).

Of course, that being said we all still do have to have the gun in the truck for staking buildings, elevations inside doors, etc. but I'd bet a few bucks a lot of us using the LS are getting a lot of dust and cobwebs on our tripods and total station gear.

 

[Jim Frame]

It would be tough to get those drivers for the Geomax/Leica gun.

SurvCE supports all of the GeoMax instruments, and most of the Leicas (TS15 being the exception).

 

[Phillip Lancaster]

SurvCE supports all of the GeoMax instruments, and most of the Leicas (TS15 being the exception).

I was being facetious. The drivers are not the problem.

 

[Patrick Garner]

Good stuff, all. Yup, it's the apples to apples that makes this difficult. And the superior LS interface is difficult to quantify without using the equipment for a few hours.

 

[toivo1037]

If they are a heavy construction company, I guess you will need to find out if they are talking machine control or traditional construction staking.

 

[Patrick Garner]

Toivo, machine control did come up as a question, but it seemed a minor issue. The majority of their work is traditional staking.

Of interest, the P.E. was far more interested in whether Javad had interfaces with any drone makers. The man's son was using drones and GNSS control to survey large parcels.

 

[Sean Joyce]

Definitely depends on the company and situation Jim. Sounds like you have certain clients and projects where a total station is still necessary but for most of us LS users, working where we work: Javad LS with its checks/precision and accuracy > total station and traverse error - all day long and three times on Thursday!
I'm talking rough, extremely steep large boundaries which would require days and days of stations. Don't care what kind of closure you end up getting when you complete your loop, the overall accuracy of each point will not beat what this LS will produce (with the appropriate accuracy settings, averaging (if required) and time spent on each point).

Of course, that being said we all still do have to have the gun in the truck for staking buildings, elevations inside doors, etc. but I'd bet a few bucks a lot of us using the LS are getting a lot of dust and cobwebs on our tripods and total station gear.

I just got my total station out today for the first time all year for a flood certificate.
Been doing mainly boundaries as you described and a topo for storm sewer.