Concerns about Galileo and Beidou

#21
Shawn
Anecdotal information using Triumph 1M's with Galileo and Bediou at 55 degrees North as base stations transmitting RTCM MSM to Topcon Hiper HR (rover) also with full GNSS constellation. Significant improvement in challenging environments! Bedoiu at the time was less benefit due to fact that the geostationary satellites were at very low angles. Most of this work was in the summer of 2017 when the number of Galileo and Bediou satellites was less - at the time predictions for the lower 48 did not show any benefit but at higher latitudes the increase in visible satellites was worth a try. Currently at my office in Anchorage tracking GPS-12 GLO 6(10) GAL 8(8) SBAS 4 BDS 7(12) = 37 (46) . () represents predicted. I am using an old ASH 700936 E as an antenna.
 

Darren Clemons

Well-Known Member
#24
I think I heard that Galileo is going to be a charged service once the bugs are worked out and we can incorporate it into the mix.
Now that is very surprising and troubling since it was never mentioned in any conversation when I was in the process of buying this system.
At the very least, I think that us buyers should have something like a 6 month test trail or so to see if we can even see a difference
in day to day surveying. But still disturbed at discovering having to pay!
From all of my interactions with everyone involved with Javad it has been very clear from day one that there would be a one time “activation” fee involved with both Galileo and Beidou. I believe this is a similar fee to what any of us that have ever used a system with Glonass have also paid and that, correct me if I’m wrong, was actually a PART of the original purchase price of a T1M/LS system.
We paid an additional activation fee for Glonass on every Topcon Hiper system we ever bought - it’s just part of it, and I will certainly pay the activation fee for Galileo for what I’m positive will be a tremendous improvement once everything is worked out within the RTK solutions using it.
I’m not sure how many of you can go back to the early 2000’s and remember the first time you used a system that combined GPS with Glonass - and I’m not saying this Galileo addition will make that significant of a change - but it was a holy *hit moment.
With what I’ve already seen just in viewing the signal strength of these Galileo sats and how many additional I can view in rough terrain (taking the “oh crap only 8 or 9 used” to the “magic” 12 or 13) in certain times and certain places I believe it will be another one of those moments.
And with Javad and his team behind it, you can bet it’ll be better/faster/stronger than anything else out there!

I can’t WAIT to pay the extra fee to be able to use Galileo.
 

toivo1037

Active Member
#25
We've discussed the possibility of short-term trial OAFs to allow Triumph-1M's to track Galileo and Beidou, but no decisions have been made yet. I'm sure it will largely depend on whether the additional signals prove effective or not.
Bring back Cinderella Tuesdays for a year!!
Although I admit, way way back in the day I only had one opportunity to use GLONASS.
 
#26
I'm grieved you feel troubled from our interactions, Randy. Truly. As a salesman I've worked extremely hard to be up front and honest with all of my customers and potential customers. I've worked hard to support you throughout your experience with Javad because I'm a surveyor like you and I value honesty and attentive support. For some of my potential customers, I spent time explaining the relative benefits of the Triumph-1M base over the Triumph-2. As others have mentioned, the Triumph-2 cannot physically track Beidou and has very limited Galileo capability (although it is not even offered as an option because it is so limited). The Triumph-1M can track them all, but comes standard with tracking GPS and Glonass. Since we've been working to offer GPS+Glonass+Galileo+Beidou RTK, I've been directing my customers to the Triumph-1M so that they will be prepared for that possibility. I only recommend the Triumph-2 to customers who are price conscientious, as the Triumph-2 is a bit less expensive than the Triumph-1M. To those who buy the Triumph-1M, I do not recommend buying the options for Galileo and Beidou because I do not yet know what, if any, benefit it will actually have to RTK solutions, and the purchase will definitely not do any good to you until the RTK engines use those signals. The only customers I recommend considering purchasing those options on the Triumph-1M are those who are financing, as they may want to take the risk and buy the signals today so that it can be included in their financing.

I did not go into those details with you because when you called me, you asked me to put together a system for you. I asked about your typical work, as I do for all of my customers, and determined that a Triumph-LS, Triumph-1M and HPT435BT radio would be the best route for you. We've known each other for the better part of 20 years. I would not betray our friendship by trying to deceive you and I thought at the time you were working from my knowledge of the equipment to put together the best system for your needs. Because of that, I did not go into the minutiae of the contingencies involved in the future of Galileo and Beidou. I believe you've been pretty happy with your system. When you have been disappointed with the system, I've gone to great lengths to support you to make things right, which I will continue to do. I do regret not taking the time to explain this all to you before, if only because you feel that I was less than honest with you.

I appreciate you and your friendship. Again, I can only express that I am grieved that you feel that I have been anything less than honest with you. We're still early in the stages of testing what is now a functional GPS+Glonass+Galileo+Beidou RTK engine. We're still way too soon in the process to demonstrate whether it will provide improvements in challenging environments or not. Once we have the engines optimized and data comparing the two versions GG-only and GGGB, we'll be sharing our results. If the results are promising, I'll probably go on the road to existing customers to demonstrate the two in challenging environments so that customers can make up their own minds. We've discussed the possibility of short-term trial OAFs to allow Triumph-1M's to track Galileo and Beidou, but no decisions have been made yet. I'm sure it will largely depend on whether the additional signals prove effective or not.

As always, if you have any questions, you are always free to call, text or email me.

Shawn
Hey Shawn, I do value you as a friend and as a contact point, I guess I should have thought out my posting better before I hit the send button. You have been nothing but honest with me since the first time I started talking about purchasing the equipment and I truly meant nothing against you at all. My keyboard gets the better of my common sense sometimes. Ill just sit on the sidelines and wait and see what shakes out with the new constellations and if it something worth purchasing for my company, then we will cross that bridge then. Again, we are extremley happy with our new system and can really see the cost savings on a monthly basis.

I look forward to the "new" in the future and you will be there for us, I am sure. I will give you a call to express those feelings soon.

Thanks again,
 

Shawn Billings

Shawn Billings
5PLS
#27
No harm, Randy. I will definitely make it a point to be very clear about the current route for implementing Galileo and Beidou. It's a lot of information to spell out on top of all of the other information potential customers are taking in. I'm trying to find the right balance of providing enough information without overwhelming people. But I can see that this is an important piece of information, particularly now that we are so close to actually seeing this become a reality.

Your Friend,
Shawn
 
#28
Some of the Javad receivers are Galileo E1 (B+C), E5A (I+Q), E5B (I+Q), AltBOC capable. Other advanced systems could unlock Galileo E6, but an older T1 receiver has only Galileo E1 (B+C), E5A (I+Q). We, the people with T1 receivers (E1/E5a only), have no chance to use E5b, AltBOC or E6 from Galileo. For the older T1, stronger E1/E5a Galileo signals will compensate for lower sensitivity tracking in difficult environment.

Is the extra activation fee the same for older/modern Javad receivers? Generally, all Javad systems should have the chance to test and experience at least a typical RTK dual-frequency, dual-system configuration with Galileo E1/E5a.
 
#29
Good day! I would like to contribute my vision of the situation with Beidou Galileo. In my office in St. Petersburg (Russia), 6 to 8 satellites are tracked simultaneously on each of these systems. Additional systems allow our customers to initialize faster in difficult conditions (forest, urban development). Unfortunately, from the entire Triumph line, only the Triumph-LS receiver has support for both systems without any option. In my opinion, this is a promising direction to support Beidou Galileo and I would like to see in the future in Triumph-3 and the following receivers, we saw these options are already pre-installed initially, including multi-frequency (Scientific).